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First Printer option?

Colin

Colin

New Member
Ok, so I've been running my sign business for about 18 years and have done so without the purchase of a Large Format Printer of any kind. So much of what I do doesn't require a printer, and I just haven't had the demand yet to justify the purchase. I simply outsource the stuff I do need printed. However, I do consider getting one from time to time, and am wondering about the following scenerio (and please forgive my ignorance on the subject):


I am aware of the new Latex printer from HP (L25500), but that is too much $$$ for me, and requires two 220 power outlets which I don't have.

Anyhoo, in my wee bit of reading, there are the "Sepiax" inks which seem to be able to be used in other (solvent?) printers, providing they have a heater (55 degrees) or a heater is made/purchased and added to the printer.


So as an economical way of getting my foot in the "printing" door, I'm wondering if there would be a good used (not too old) printer that might be a good candidate for this Sepiax-switch approach, and if so, which make & model? (As space is limited, I wouldn't want a huge printer. I'm a one-man show, so would have difficulty physically handling huge prints anyways).


*I also will not be able to fit a laminator into my small shop.


Thanks in advance.
 
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Bigdawg

Bigdawg

Just Me
Not having a laminator is going to be a huge drawback to printing. Most of our stuff is laminated simply because of the intense heat... I would think you'd want to do the same for the Canadian cold.

Just my thoughts - have no idea on the inks or printer itself, just wanted to mention that not being able to laminate would stop me from buying a printer...
 
Letterbox Mike

Letterbox Mike

New Member
Colin,

My knowledge of the Sepiax inks is somewhat limited, but I was looking recently at the option to convert our JV3 to it, or rather weighing converting it to Sepiax vs. selling it and replacing it with a new L25500. At this point, we're leaving towards the latter, mostly because I'd rather have a new printer ready to go than have to fidget with getting a new ink system up and running in a 4 year old machine, which we just don't have the time for.

That said, from what I see, if you're a little mechanically inclined and don't mind rolling up your sleeves, it seems the Sepiax inks do work and work well. The FLAAR report was mostly positive, which is a good indication they are worthy of further investigation.

The downside, in your case, may be that you're not familiar with wide format printing. With these inks, you're also looking at purchasing the equipment to make your own profiles, learning a not-so-widely used ink system with limited users and support, on top of the hassles and frustrations of just learning to print.

So yes, it's doable, but I'm not sure it would be prudent in your case, the learning curve you would be facing may be exceptionally steep. And once you buy a good used printer for $5-7k, the ink system for another grand, plus another $2k for a good rip, plus another $1500 or so for profiling software, you're in the low end of the ballpark for a new solvent or eco-solvent printer. That's if you choose not to pay someone to train you on profiling on site, which could easily be another $1000+.

If I were in your case, I'd just buy a good used eco-sol or solvent printer and learn the ropes that way first, and determine if this is even a market you want to be in. If it is, and once you get the hang of printers and their never-ending temper tantrums, then consider converting it to Sepiax.

Or just keep outsourcing, its a lot easier! (-:
 
Colin

Colin

New Member
Bigdawg said:
Not having a laminator is going to be a huge drawback to printing. Most of our stuff is laminated simply because of the intense heat... I would think you'd want to do the same for the Canadian cold.
Click to expand...

I'm in the Pacific Northwest (think Seattle), so our winters aren't very cold.

Just my thoughts - have no idea on the inks or printer itself, just wanted to mention that not being able to laminate would stop me from buying a printer...
Click to expand...

Yes, that's definately an issue which I would have to live with, and simply "not laminate" where appropriate (temporary signage, decals etc), and outsource any laminating that would be necessary.
 
Colin

Colin

New Member
insignia said:
My knowledge of the Sepiax inks is somewhat limited, but I was looking recently at the option to convert our JV3 to it, or rather weighing converting it to Sepiax vs. selling it and replacing it with a new L25500. At this point, we're leaving towards the latter, mostly because I'd rather have a new printer ready to go than have to fidget with getting a new ink system up and running in a 4 year old machine, which we just don't have the time for.

That said, from what I see, if you're a little mechanically inclined and don't mind rolling up your sleeves, it seems the Sepiax inks do work and work well. The FLAAR report was mostly positive, which is a good indication they are worthy of further investigation.

The downside, in your case, may be that you're not familiar with wide format printing. With these inks, you're also looking at purchasing the equipment to make your own profiles, learning a not-so-widely used ink system with limited users and support, on top of the hassles and frustrations of just learning to print.

So yes, it's doable, but I'm not sure it would be prudent in your case, the learning curve you would be facing may be exceptionally steep. And once you buy a good used printer for $5-7k, the ink system for another grand, plus another $2k for a good rip, plus another $1500 or so for profiling software, you're in the low end of the ballpark for a new solvent or eco-solvent printer. That's if you choose not to pay someone to train you on profiling on site, which could easily be another $1000+.

If I were in your case, I'd just buy a good used eco-sol or solvent printer and learn the ropes that way first, and determine if this is even a market you want to be in. If it is, and once you get the hang of printers and their never-ending temper tantrums, then consider converting it to Sepiax.

Or just keep outsourcing, its a lot easier! (-:
Click to expand...

Thanks for the thorough reply. Lots of great points. Yes, I am aware of how much I don't know when it comes to LFP and color management. Outsourcing has worked out fairly well so far, but not having the control of delivery times is a pain. Plus, there's the whole "new toy" aspect that is lost (lol).
 
Gino

Gino

Premium Subscriber
If you're looking to do a print in one swipe, you need to look at your available printing width and if your present cutter can be set up to accept these prints to cut any contour cuts out afterwards.

You need to evaluate what your needs are and go from there. Just looking at your space and finding a printer to fit could and would probably backfire on you in the long run.

As for the laminate, if you're really serious about doing any outdoor prints regardless of cold or heat, you're going to need a laminator. You can go liquid, but that can become quite cumbersome after a few times.
 
MikePro

MikePro

New Member
o i have no clue about the gerber edge really... its small and people use it to print decals, but it could be vector-based-only for all i know.

only useful advice I can give is to buy a Mimaki jv3-160... they're relitavely old and might find a good deal on a used one. AND it still kicks ass. AND these forums can basically teach you to run your own repairs/maintenance. The VOCs are hardly an issue, as I've forgotten to turn on my fan plenty of times and hardly notice it.

Regardless, a waterfall-style printer is your only option if you don't have the space/budget.

I also know people that have bought a "share" of nearby shops' printers which allows them to run their own material/ink cartridges during off-hours while they split costs of maintenance supplies/parts as they occur.
 
Colin

Colin

New Member
Gino said:
If you're looking to do a print in one swipe, you need to look at your available printing width and if your present cutter can be set up to accept these prints to cut any contour cuts out afterwards.
Click to expand...

I have a 30" Summa D750 Pro (27.6" cutting) width, and I think the OPOS can be added; not sure.



As for the laminate, if you're really serious about doing any outdoor prints regardless of cold or heat, you're going to need a laminator. You can go liquid, but that can become quite cumbersome after a few times.
Click to expand...

I wonder about this. If a sign is going to be temporary, why laminate? I wouldn't dream of selling unlaminated prints/signs where they should be laminated, or without that full disclosure of no lam, but like I said earlier, I could always outsource those few lams that are definately required.

:help
 
Colin

Colin

New Member
MikePro said:
The VOCs are hardly an issue, as I've forgotten to turn on my fan plenty of times and hardly notice it.
Click to expand...

I think that the negative health effects won't raise their ugly heads until years down the road.



Regardless, a waterfall-style printer is your only option if you don't have the space/budget.
Click to expand...

What is a "waterfall style printer? - never heard that term. (told you I was ignorant on this). :Big Laugh
 
MikePro

MikePro

New Member
waterfall is the opposite of a flatbed, comes in one side and drapes down the other after print.... hopefully to a take-up roller if you can manage.

and for the VOCs you really only need an exhaust fan the size of one you'd install into your shower... or a carbon filter'd air mover that's the size of a water dispenser.
... 8k for latex printer BigFish?!? Hell yeah, jump on that ship for sure!!! Latex printing only exhausts heat and water vapor.

Find a way to laminate, regardless... you'll lose your printing clients fast after they start trying to clean their signs and realize the ink comes off... your squeegee may also scratch the ink on your prints as you're applying.
 
Mike Paul

Mike Paul

Super Active Member
Inkjet printers and laminators go hand in hand.
I wouldn't invest in one without the other if your making exterior signs and decals.

Maybe you should look at the Summa line of thermal printers. Print & cut from one machine without the need for lamination. They come in 30in. and 54in.

The Edge is a great machine but your limited to the 11.8in. print height; anything larger you have to panel your prints.

http://www.summausa.com/products/
 
Colin

Colin

New Member
MikePro said:
Latex printing only exhausts heat and water vapor.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure, but something tells me I recently read that that is not the case for Latex inks, they're different again in how they "go off". *shrug*


Find a way to laminate, regardless... you'll lose your printing clients fast after they start trying to clean their signs and realize the ink comes off... your squeegee may also scratch the ink on your prints as you're applying.
Click to expand...

Again, I wouldn't sell a print in an application where it truly ought to be laminated, but it appears from my perspective that there are many applications which don't really need a lam. (?)

I have a 6" squeegee with black felt on one edge which works well on prints, I've had no problems yet.

So, would y'all say that the output from thermal printers (Summa DC4sx / Gerber Edge) truly doesn't require lamination?
 
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Malkin

Malkin

New Member
I have had direct experience with a Gerber Edge over the last 7 years.

It will print using spot colors or CMYK process colors. It will print vector art or raster images (like photos). It runs best from Gerber Omega, but can also run from Flexi I think.

The Gerber foils all have different lifespans. Black can last 5-7 years or maybe more, while some colors may only be 18-24 months. CMYK foils seem to be about 3-4 years. The colors do scratch easy, and will dissolve when hit with a solvent.

I have been also using ZeroNine's NexGen foils and they seem to last longer and are also solvent resistant. They sell a clear "frogskin" to additionally protect the graphics.

We have found that as long as people know that there will be seams, it was not an issue, and they don't show from a distance.

Cost per foot will vary, but plan on about $0.60 per color, plus vinyl.

We have migrated a lot of jobs to our eco-sol machine at this point, but the Edge does remain useful.
 
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