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Need Help First Wrap

Discussion in 'Vehicle Wraps' started by MHester, Feb 2, 2017.

  1. ikarasu

    ikarasu Member

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    It's all competition. If they can install these for material cost, and throw away the cost of labor... Let them. Eventually he'll realize it's not worth the money, and someone else will get the business.

    This is why serious sign shops diversify. My company doesn't just do wraps, or signs, or cut lettering. One of our cities decided it'd be more cost effective to do everything in house. I learned about it because when I first went to a wrap course, a guy from the city was there also learning how to wrap. They make all their own city signs, wrap all their own utility boxes, etc. Thats a huge, huge chunk of business that sign makers can no longer do.

    HP now sells a latex printer for $10,000, that can produce prints just as good (Albeit not as fast) As our $60,000 printer. The market is changing, and people are starting to do their own stuff. That's just the way the world works... Which is why as sign makers, you're supposed to find the niche market that you're good at, and offer them services.


    Think of it like screen printers. Imagine how they felt when wide format printing came out. Their job is almost obsolete (I say almost because we do A LOT of screen printing, We're one of the few shops around that still do in our area... It's a niche market now, and actually brings in a ton of cash). I'm sure they hated all these new sign makers who used printers... or plotters... or anything else.

    In the future, most jobs will be done by robots. We can sit here and cry about it, or try to adapt to it. (No offence, I don't mean you're crying about it, I just mean we can try to keep the "Sign making secrets" as secret as possible, but in reality, no matter how much we wish our business stayed the way it is, reality is it's changing. 3M/Avery is making wrapping way easier with their conformable, and controltac than it used to be too.

    And I hate to say it, but it's the digital age... Signs 101 isn't the only place to learn. He could go on youtube and watch one of the 10,000 videos on how to wrap a truck, do rivets, or pretty much anything. I'd rather signs101 be a friendly place that teaches people the PROPER way to do a job, than some schmuck watching someone wrap a truck on youtube, then goes out and buys a $100 roll of vinyl that's going to cause more harm than anything. Mhester asked all the right questions, He's not trying to do the job as cheap as possible like most places these days. He may be a newbie, but he knows more than the average joe. Everyone has to start somewhere... Maybe he'll love wrapping, and open up a wrap shop next.
     
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  2. Johnny Best

    Johnny Best Active Member

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    Leave it outside the gates please! gifthorse.jpg
     
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  3. ColoPrinthead

    ColoPrinthead Swollen Member

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    How is the 1105 different than 1005? When I look at their spec sheets they appear to be the same?
     
  4. Gino

    Gino Premium Subscriber

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    Hahahaaaa..... funny turn to this thread. Someone said, this isn't affecting someone else's business who was posting here, but it DOES affect sign shops business in the vicinity of where this OP is from. Anytime you have some schmuck taking his/her/their business in-house, they are skirting around paying professionals to do it. Sure, you'll say, they can do it faster and more cost effective this way, but they still took the money off of several other sign shops food table. In most cases.... or at least all of the ones I've witnessed doing this, have done it for one reason and one reason alone. When making the purchases in this equipment, they now have a nice write-off for the other part of their main business and continue to pour money into this new department. However, they forget one thing and hire bozo's to run the place. Therefore, you have all of these same wannabees coming here and asking questions, that shouldn't be needed asked, if they knew anything. What's that you say.... ya hafta start somewhere ?? That indeed is true, but why not hire someone who can do this stuff before hiring idiots and give them worthless titles ?? Oh, that's right, they are willing to pay for some equipment, but not the hired help, huh ??

    Ya know what, watch some Utubes and tell your boss he hired a dummy and you hafta learn what you hafta do, cause you don't know how.
     
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  5. DKgrafix

    DKgrafix Premium Subscriber

    1105 replaces 1005. The new vinyl is formulated not to have issues with new Latex printers and excessive heat they produce.
    1005 sometimes had issues with buckling and color when printed with latex.

    It is just different formulation, spec should be the same. But I think the adhesive is a bit more tacky than 1005. Not as much as Oracal, but a bit tackier than 1005.
     
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  6. spectrum maine

    spectrum maine Member

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    controltac or air realease, cast- dry . period.
    wet application if no rivets. sounds like a signarama on their first box truck.
     
  7. MHester

    MHester Member

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    Holy cow folks, it's amazing what this thread turned into. To clear the air, MHester stands for Mary Hester, and ya'll are *****ing at a 50 year old woman, so I hope you feel better. Geeze. With 35 years graphic design experience to boot, I do know a few things...
    My story is this, I work for a carwash equipment manufacturer. We recently spent $45K back in August on a startup in-house print shop (I'm the designer and printer) so that we could print out equipment decals in house. We got tired of waiting on sign shops to make our decals for us (we use a hundred decals a day), so we purchased equipment ourselves (I researched for 8 months on the right equipment I needed). I only got 2 days of training on the equipment and NO training on the process. I have learned everything myself so far and have done a damn good job. After 35 years of designing, it's nice to finally get my hands into the printing end of it.
    We have purchased over 8 new company vans and just recently a box truck, all of which have been professionally wrapped (we outsourced them), with the exception of the box truck. Boss said "can you do it"?" As I'm always up for a challenge, I figured I could eat least look into it. I didn't realize y'all would bite my head off when I came for advice. I am in no means trying to cut out your business at all, nor would I want to. A few of you stood up for me, thank you :) I'm hear to learn and get advice from pro's like you, but not steal your work or your clients. So, before y'all jump in and complain about a newbie and ***** about the owners of signs101 and how they could let me in, please step back and be a bit more kind. You didn't know the back story and you just assumed I was trying to steal your work. The print shop I'm running is just for making decals and menu signs for our 3000 customers (carwash owners), NOT the public...like who your customers are. Chill. And thank you.
     
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  8. ColoPrinthead

    ColoPrinthead Swollen Member

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    :clapping:
     
  9. Johnny Best

    Johnny Best Active Member

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    Your here to assimilate among us which is fine, but you did steal away the #100 stickers a day from some sign company and someone out there is not doing the box truck. Maybe you did not do it, but your company did. We are a bunch of middle class people, which I assume you are to and competition is healthy as long as it is on a level playing field. But with large companies buying equipment and moving to other countries to pay lower wages, people such as me become worried about the future of our industry. Started out as a sign painter and watched this business being taken over by "designers" buying equipment and changing the the way it was run. Change also does not bother me that much anymore because it has gotten to be so commonplace, good luck in your job running the printing for your company, and also with the box truck install.
     
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  10. Gino

    Gino Premium Subscriber

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    I'm not quite sure how explaining you're a female and doing this for 35 years makes a difference ?? The facts are the facts, regardless what gender you are or how long you've been doing this..... or that your company bought equipment and you only had two days training. Is that really supposed to make a big dent on the real facts ?? Perhaps, you hadda wait for your decals because you always waited til the last minute to order them and expected some local to hop to your beckon call. Guess the guy was just sitting there with his feet on the desk, just waiting for the phone to ring from you.

    You've come to the right place to find things out, but don't expect sympathy as that's just an emotion which really hasn't much to do with business, especially when food is being taken off of someone's table. You say you're not here to steal clients or work from us...... but you did EXACTLY that, no matter how you twist the facts. Somewhere, your company just stopped buying from one or two local companies for some reason, which if what you say is true, doesn't make sense. No one will make a large order wait on purpose, unless they are a pain.

    I could care less if you are a newbie or a seasoned mechanic...... you still came in a back door and now wanna skirt around your local people. To me, that's just plain wrong and if I... or other people here help you, they are helping take away from our fellow sign shops..... and that's not what this place is set up to do, at least, I didn't think so. Therefore, you try stepping back and be kind to the shops you've just taken work away from and think about how the shoe fits on the other foot. What you did to them is what some are doing here. Where are your emotions now ??

    Chill...... who in the world tells people they are trying to find out information from tell them to chill ?? Get a grip. We're all mostly in this for a living, not a job.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2017
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  11. printhog

    printhog Member

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    There's a business logic to what your company did. It's called self commissary, and it's a type of 1980's management that is based on saving every little bit no matter the cost. It often hurts a small business somewhere that was supplying those products your firm went in house on. Somewhere a person like you lost her job so your firm could save a few dollars on what are likely last minute orders. Someday your boss will learn he doesn't need a 50 year old experienced designer when a 21 year old college student is likely far faster, and cheaper.. you'll be another cost to cut. And that'll be two jobs lost for your company to save a buck on stickers.

    Companies that internalize graphics have no idea of the value after a time. So they do just what your doing, they try to learn from professionals. At least you're asking, vs having a few shops bid that truck and then using the info to try your hand at it.

    Now if your supplier was supporting you, you could call and ask them the very questions you asked us. Since they directly benefit from you, they should be able to teach you. Unless you don't have that kind of relationship, which speaks volumes about your self commissary model.

    I still stand by my feeling that you don't belong here. This site (in my understanding) is supposed to be for tradespeople and businesses specifically engaged in the sign business, not ancillary to it as a cost reduction for car wash systems.

    Imagine how we'd feel if trucking fleets came here doing what your doing?

    You will likely not offer any benefit to the other members, but you'll certainly take take take.

    In the meanwhile, I'll wash my own car so your firm doesn't get any benefit.

    Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk
     
    • Like Like x 3
  12. ikarasu

    ikarasu Member

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    Port Coquitlam, bc
    On one hand, I get where you guys are coming from. On the other, everytime my company buys a new piece of machinery... whether it's a CNC machine to cut our own aluminum, grapghtec to do our own cutting instead of outsourcing.. we're taking business from someone else.

    A lot of my posts, and other posts I've seen are people having problems with their machines, and looking for someone who has experience on how to fix it / diagnose it. Isn't that also taking work from the techs?

    I've worked at this company for a a little over a year (We're a sign based company, high volume shop... dabble in a bit of everything from applicating to signs, blades, decals, etc), I was thrown into a digital printing position because the other guy suddenly fell ill and had to leave the company. I got 1 day training on how to operate a flatbed, Roll to roll, laminator, graphtec, and numerous other machines. 90% of the stuff, I learned from this forum. I contribute what I can, whether it's stuff I read from threads that were posted 5 years ago, or the hand on experience from actually doing wraps, and discovering stuff on my own.

    I know my 1 year "experience" makes me a newbie, and I don't know how the business works outside of my little printing office, Maybe you guys are right, I don't know. I plan on opening my own place in a couple of months. Buying a printer/laminator/graphtec. It'll be a "Side business" to go along with my current job... doing stuff that doesn't compete with them for sure. But I suppose I might feel different, when I view it as money I could have been making. Who knows! Anyways, I'll leave it at that... no point in arguing. It's up to the new owner if posts/accounts like this should be allowed to exist.
     
  13. printhog

    printhog Member

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    My take on your take.. you're wanting to buy some equipment and do side work. Every sign guy I've known has done that, and many shops started that way. But somewhere along that path it becomes full time. Why work a week for $600 when you can do that in a day. So then you're a business owner. But you're not thinking like one yet. You're not thinking of the investment cost of your equipment, the time to get customers, and the effect of the economy in your town for your business.. not yet. But one day you do.

    Employees, pressure, stress, laws, codes, insurance. Yikes. You invest your heart and likely all your money. And youve grown to get some nice big clients. Now imagine, one of them, whose been a volume customer for a few years, for no reason just goes away. You find they went in house for graphics. You can't compete with that. But they come back asking for advice. Do you offer it? Why? They're not going to benefit you. They're not going to improve the trades. They're just trying to be cheap.

    That isn't the same as your competitors buying technology to make product and taking your clients with the offer of better capacity. After all, you can buy the CNC machine, etc too. You can learn that skillset. You might have to pay to do it. You might make a lot of expensive mistakes. But that's how we learn in the trade. But you will have an investment in a productive tool and skill that makes jobs.

    While I don't really begrudge the lady's boss for self commissary, I do begrudge the OP asking here on a forum that is for tradespeople. The savings her firm is enjoying is at the expense of our trade. Offering her solutions to her problems will not benefit a sign business or the trade. In fact it will hinder learning.

    If their self commissary is just for making stickers fine. But they'll soon step into other signs. They always do. And some workers will side job, you yourself are tempted. Not knowing the prices, those kind of people deeply undercut the local shops. That in house printer will likely result in a few hundred thousand in local economic damages from that. I've seen it happen.

    In the first days of cheap vinyl plotters it was rampant everywhere.

    OP's lack of knowledge is an indicator that they're firm isn't supported by a supplier, and unwilling to hire a seasoned professional. What benefit is there to our trade in that?

    Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Signchief

    Signchief Member

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    WET APPLY! I would not worry about the rivets let the vinyl dome around them and in a couple months the vinyl will tighten up around the rivets.
     
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  15. Gino

    Gino Premium Subscriber

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    Now there..... is a well thought out great piece of advice. One of the best I've seen or read in a long long time.
     
  16. equippaint

    equippaint Member

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    I don't understand why everyone on here is so hateful. Cant you just provide some advice that may in turn help someone else in the future on here and make this forum a good source of information? There are other sign companies on here that may not do wraps but look for information about adding it and stumble across this.
    All the railing on distributors doing print in house is pretty narrow minded. Distributors are essentially a marketing company and with that comes creation of marketing materials POP displays, banners, product promotion etc. What you fail to see is that every single sign company that provides design work is also stealing work away from marketing/design firms just like what you are complaining about. What about the sign companies that sell business cards? You're stealing work away from offset print shops, 20 years ago they were distinctly separate businesses from signs. Tshirts - poor local embroidery shops should be getting that work. The sign guys that sells a new business a wrap, shirts, business cards and basically create the company image - your stealing from marketing companies. Sign companies that do their own electrical - stealing work from the electricians. Sure you can argue that the electrical is a part of the sign, same way a distributor can argue that printing is part of the marketing.
    No one here complains when they buy a good printer brand new for $10k but whine like little girls when someone else does. What do you honestly expect? Youre buying cnc routers for cheap now and taking away work from sandblasters but fail to see that too.

    Car dealers have quick oil change services now - is jiffy lube crying? Car dealers sell tires - how can that be, you sell cars and are stealing away business from a tire shop. Car dealers have body shops, how ridiculous there are tons of independent collision shops.

    It sounds like the problem she has is reliability and consistency with suppliers which pushed them to take it in house, not saving a few dollars. With their volume (if its true) paying for decals vs making them in house wont make a bit of difference in margins at the end of the day. Having $10 worth of decals hold up delivery of a $50k machine will hurt you and it seems thats where theyre at.
    My suggestion to the OP, go on Youtube and search, there's a ton of instructional stuff and no one will jump out of the screen and berate you there.
     
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  17. RJPW

    RJPW Major Contributor

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    Yep. My thoughts exactly. All downhill from here...
     
  18. rossmosh

    rossmosh Member

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    Your boss hires someone out of college with a degree in graphic design. He says "train this new employee so I can fire you because they make $10k less per year." Would you train that person?

    If she can't do this job, would another sign shop do it? If the answer is yes, it's counter intuitive for anyone on here to give a lot of advise. The good news is the people that make and sell these materials can help. There are wrap classes you can take. You have options to educate yourself. I just think it's unrealistic for anyone to expect people to help when it doesn't benefit them at all and in fact hurts them.
     
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  19. juan.runnells

    juan.runnells New Member

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    Wow. Just straight up honesty. Love that. ;)

    Sent from my SM-G935W8 using Tapatalk
     
  20. Kentucky Wraps

    Kentucky Wraps Kentucky Wraps

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    By doing cut graphics there, you'd be spending twice the materials and labor. What possible reason would there be to do cut graphics on that layout that is filling out all the space anyway? Cut graphics are harder to apply to rivets than full wrap vinyl. Hire this job and and watch the installers. Then start practicing on your own trailer.
     
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