Flatbed cutter users - how do you estimate time?

[MGB_LE]

Our estimator regularly asks me for time estimates on CNC / flatbed cutter work. I have a speeds and feeds chart from Colex. This isn't very helpful to consider time to move from piece to piece in the layout, slowing down for rounded edges, etc.

As an example:
"Name Card
4.25” x 6”
Quantity: 500
4/0
15 Mil Rigid Vinyl
Round corner
Drill .25" hole at top"

Often at this stage we aren't provided a cut file, so it'll need to be created in Prepress. That means I don't even have something I can run on the machine maybe 1 inch above the table to get a time estimate (itself an inefficient method of estimating, given the staff and equipment involved.)
We happen to run a Colex Shartpcut with ColexCutCenter 8

I'd like to have it easier for my estimator and myself, too.

 

[White Haus]

Personally I would just guesstimate, but given the fact that you have an estimator and are trying to get super accurate times I'm assuming that wouldn't be good enough. (And probably not ideal if your estimator isn't super familiar with the equipment and doesn't know how much time these things take)

Can you work off your feed/speed numbers and just build in x% for travel, slowing down for turns etc, and come up with a simple calculator that would multiply perimeter of piece x # of copies @ adjusted IPS = total job time? (roughly speaking)

I'm sure with a few test runs and comparing actual vs estimated you could get a sense of how close you're getting.

For your example, I would guesstimate it taking .75 - 1 hr to load material/file, cut, and remove/clean up. Based on doing it all with a heavy duty knife. (we have a Summa, but same idea on Colex I would imagine)

 

[MGB_LE]

Personally I would just guesstimate, but given the fact that you have an estimator and are trying to get super accurate times I'm assuming that wouldn't be good enough. (And probably not ideal if your estimator isn't super familiar with the equipment and doesn't know how much time these things take)

Can you work off your feed/speed numbers and just build in x% for travel, slowing down for turns etc, and come up with a simple calculator that would multiply perimeter of piece x # of copies @ adjusted IPS = total job time? (roughly speaking)

I'm sure with a few test runs and comparing actual vs estimated you could get a sense of how close you're getting.

For your example, I would guesstimate it taking .75 - 1 hr to load material/file, cut, and remove/clean up. Based on doing it all with a heavy duty knife. (we have a Summa, but same idea on Colex I would imagine)

As a hobby I 3D print, and some slicer software estimates are within a couple minutes and others are off by more than an hour with their time estimates.
With our flatbed cutter/router, I have been guesstimating, and sometimes it's reasonable, while sometimes a certain step takes longer than we imagined, x 20 pieces, and your time is an hour or 2 longer than anticipated. I've taken a stab at saying .8 of the indicated speed takes into account slowing for turns and movement between pieces. Just looking for best practices or software solutions that don't break the bank.

 

[Gino]

Don't have a CNC, but I would imagine it would be like any other tedious project. Take some time and write down every possible need on your cutter and itemize it. Put them into categories, under subtitles and whatever else ya need t do to keep things accurate. If you have 500 cards with 4 corners the cost of putting a radius on one corner would be X amount of time at X amount of cost.... times 2,000. Drill one hole would be X amount of time at X amount of cost, times however many. It might take some time to input it sall, but that's how you'll get the most accurate time. You also must include your load and unloading time by however many up you run at a time.

 

[Raum Divarco]

Can always dry run something when you have time in-between jobs to get an accurate idea. Most machines have an estimator for time. While many of them are wrong you can still get a good idea to estimate. Or run one and multiply or run half. The main thing is to make sur e you are using the appropriate feed and speed or the time will be way off.

 

[MGB_LE]

Can always dry run something when you have time in-between jobs to get an accurate idea. Most machines have an estimator for time. While many of them are wrong you can still get a good idea to estimate. Or run one and multiply or run half. The main thing is to make sur e you are using the appropriate feed and speed or the time will be way off.

I have done that in the past but it’s not a reliable system because I have to interrupt any work that’s already going on on the machine. Also in most cases I don’t have the die line already for the cut file already but I may know the size.

 

[Boudica]

We don't have a CNC, but we have a great relationship with a company that does only that. They have a variety of machines. They charge us a "table fee". X amount for putting the sheet on to the table. No matter the size, or the complexity of the cut. We pay per sheet.
They do large volumes... And our projects are like onesey-twosey projects for them. So small in comparison... But they are down the road, and, good relationship.
Edit... I create and supply them the cut file, and I know what they need.

 

[MGB_LE]

Now I see how frustrating a topic this is for me. I forgot that I started a similar thread just last month. I feel bad that I am at times the hold up for our estimator getting pricing because we don't have a good system for estimating flatbed cutting. We can't dry run every potential scenario, and basing it on Colex's speeds/feeds matrix yields unrealistically short times unless I apply some correcting factor. Here's the other thread in case some content there helps with my question on this thread: https://www.signs101.com/threads/flatbed-cutter-cnc-estimating.166309/

 

[Z SIGNS]

Trying to figure a shop rates based on what it should be in theory is nonsense.
How long it takes the machine to perform is only a fraction of what it really is.
Unless your shop is different and you have perfected every scenario
Don't forget to add..
I broke a bit and had to buy a new one.
I had to buy a new bit cause the old one is worn.
My hold down technique did not work as planned and I wasted a whole sheet and have to buy another.
The time to clean up and get rid of the waste.
I made a mistake on the feed rates and it went south.
The time to create the files
The list could go on and on. Anyone care to add?
Long story short.
You charge as much as you can and still get the job.

 

[johnnysigns]

We try to always include: file handling, initial setup/testing, tooling costs, loading and unloading guesstimates and any prep work needed to clean/handle for bulk packing or assembly.

 

[CanuckSigns]

We just got our summa f1612 a year ago, one of the first jobs we had for it was routing so.e 0.5" thick black pvc, I learned very quickly to add an hour to the job to account for sweeping and cleaning pvc chips out of every nook and cranny in the shop!

 

[Print1]

If you need someone to train or help on any colex machine I’d be happy to help. Former colex tech with 8+ years experience on colex and 20+ printing. I offer 24/7 support, discounted visits and yearly support packages.
I service the entire US, Mexico and Canada.

 

[MGB_LE]

If you need someone to train or help on any colex machine I’d be happy to help. Former colex tech with 8+ years experience on colex and 20+ printing. I offer 24/7 support, discounted visits and yearly support packages.
I service the entire US, Mexico and Canada.

If you have a price sheet or menu of services to share, please send them to LREED@abcoinc.com.
ABCO is located in Dallas, TX

 

[GB2]

How do you setup your prepress files, what software are you using? Can your software determine the total number of inches that you will be processing? If so, you can charge a per inch rate to which you can add or incorporate time for setup, cleanup, etc. In your simple example you can determine the number of inches in the one 4.25x6 piece, multiplied by 500, multiplied by your rate to get the total estimate.

Here's an example of doing that in Illustrator for your 6x4.25 rectangle with .25 rounded corners and .1875 holes in 4 corners = 22.4275" total

 

[MGB_LE]

How do you setup your prepress files, what software are you using? Can your software determine the total number of inches that you will be processing? If so, you can charge a per inch rate to which you can add or incorporate time for setup, cleanup, etc. In your simple example you can determine the number of inches in the one 4.25x6 piece, multiplied by 500, multiplied by your rate to get the total estimate.

Here's an example of doing that in Illustrator for your 6x4.25 rectangle with .25 rounded corners and .1875 holes in 4 corners = 22.4275" total

Most times we don’t have the cut file ahead of time. See the image below for example. I’ll receive this in email and say we need 112 cut contour from foam core at roughly 10x12”. There’s no cut file provided so what is my plan to help estimating get a price quickly?

Or in this example they want cut vinyl lettering instead of the rectangle. Is there a quick way to get a path length without having prepress process the file twice (once for quote and again IF we get the job?)

 

[Boudica]

Most times we don’t have the cut file ahead of time. See the image below for example. I’ll receive this in email and say we need 112 cut contour from foam core at roughly 10x12”. There’s no cut file provided so what is my plan to help estimating get a price quickly? View attachment 159839 View attachment 159847
Or in this example they want cut vinyl lettering instead of the rectangle. Is there a quick way to get a path length without having prepress process the file twice (once for quote and again IF we get the job?)

I'm not sure I understand your question here. But in effort to be helpful...
Go to the site. Bring a tape measure, and some marker tape. Take a picture that includes a measurement (s) reference for scale. And the decision maker on the client end. Measure the area the wanted graphic should fill. Mark it, photograph it.
Then, as the professional they are looking to hire, you give them some options.
Go back and create an at scale mock up. With the desired graphics at a real scale.
Show them mockups. Approved, production, install... If the installation is bad, it's bad. It has to be redone. That's between you and the installer. No client "sign off" will over take the initial contract/expectations. If you stand by your hopefully good reputation anyway.

 

[MGB_LE]

I'm not sure I understand your question here. But in effort to be helpful...
Go to the site. Bring a tape measure, and some marker tape. Take a picture that includes a measurement (s) reference for scale. And the decision maker on the client end. Measure the area the wanted graphic should fill. Mark it, photograph it.
Then, as the professional they are looking to hire, you give them some options.
Go back and create an at scale mock up. With the desired graphics at a real scale.
Show them mockups. Approved, production, install... If the installation is bad, it's bad. It has to be redone. That's between you and the installer. No client "sign off" will over take the initial contract/expectations. If you stand by your hopefully good reputation anyway.

I think I muddied this post my adding the example image from my other thread. On this thread I’m trying to figure out best practices for estimating cut contour jobs without having to run a file through prepress or create a cut file for a job that we may not get. I posted the crooked install image as an example of “what if the client wanted us to quote cut vinyl letters in this instance; how do we figure path length so the estimator can do pricing quickly?

 

[GB2]

So, I copied your image, pasted it in Illustrator at the original copied size, traced it roughly with the pencil tool and calculated the total linear length to be 50.1688". This is a simple example but it took me maybe...one minute. Certainly you can type out simple text too without much effort to get semi-accurate rough measurements. Not a perfect system, and I can imagine some jobs may be much more complicated, but it's just an example of another way to approach the problem.

 

[rjssigns]

No CNC but for a long long time I used a digital stopwatch. It was because I thought I was losing money on certain jobs.
As soon as I turned on the computer the stopwatch was activated. When the job was complete it got shut off and time noted in a spreadsheet.
Remote jobs with travel are the same, from loading the truck to getting back to the shop it was all timed and noted.
I've begun timing jobs again just to make sure I'm good on pricing.
Stopwatch is easier than using your phones built in timer.
Simple but accurate.

 

[jjsportz]

We have run several "test cuts" to get a cost per inch, and charge accordingly.