Flatbed Cutters - Cutting Mats

[White Haus]

Are cutting mats intended to be single use when using a router on a conveyer belt flatbed cutter?

Should cut quality be severely affected when cutting on top of a gently used cutting mat?

Does it makes sense that once cut on both sides the mat would be cut right through? (Down position offset is roughly half the thickness of the mat)

I'm wondering specifically for our Summa F1612 but I would imagine this would apply to any brand/model.

Trying to figure out why our router cuts so inconsistently and considering the cutting mat as one of the culprits.

PS. Anyone have a lead on cheaper cutting mat rolls in Canada, or US?

Thanks in advance.

 

[jasonx]

Not sure about the summa but on our zund we only use one side of the matt. We don't cut halfway through the matt, We cut just enough to cut through the board may be 0.5mm.

We also use 3mm MDF as an underlay for routing larger pieces. Rubber matt is good for smaller pieces as it also grips the material.

Things to have checked.

The table is flat. The gantry is level to the table.
You're not over-cutting through the board.
You're router bit is sharp.

 

[SignEST]

Never used a flatbed cutter such as the ones you guys are referring to and I was always wondering about that cutting mat. Seems pretty wasteful to cut into it with the rotary cutter. Like jasonx said you could use a thin layer of MDF as a makeshift table. Make sure it's uncoated both sides and plane it if need be. It will be just as good at holding your parts down just like the cutting mat would.

 

[zspace]

When you put the mat on top of the belt you need to adjust your zero point on the Z axis. The bit should just touch the mat. Our current mat is 3 months old and we expect to last at least 6.

 

[White Haus]

Not sure about the summa but on our zund we only use one side of the matt. We don't cut halfway through the matt, We cut just enough to cut through the board may be 0.5mm.

We also use 3mm MDF as an underlay for routing larger pieces. Rubber matt is good for smaller pieces as it also grips the material.

Things to have checked.

The table is flat. The gantry is level to the table.
You're not over-cutting through the board.
You're router bit is sharp.

Thanks for this Jason, much appreciated. Obviously my down position is set way too low which is wasting my mat and possibly cutting the material on the wrong spot on the bit.

I ran a couple of jobs recently where first few cuts were absolutely perfect (Cutting laminated prints on ACM) with great chip extraction and nice clean edges on the aluminum, plastic, and vinyl. The quality of the cuts quickly reduced to the point where the edges were serrated and vinyl/laminate was all chewed up on the edges. This is what prompted me to start looking into this as we can't really seem to get consistent cuts on the router with our Summa, and figured I was probably doing something wrong.

I will adjust my down position offset, double check that the table is level, and then test again with a new bit and report back. I'll also grab some MDF and see how that works, as that stuff if a hell of a lot cheaper than the cutting mats!

Thanks again.

PS. Always enjoy seeing you and your brother's posts on LinkedIn! Quite the operation you have going there.

 

[White Haus]

When you put the mat on top of the belt you need to adjust your zero point on the Z axis. The bit should just touch the mat. Our current mat is 3 months old and we expect to last at least 6.

Thanks Alan, good to know. Hopefully this means we don't have to drop $1000+ for another roll anytime soon.

Do you see any noticeable difference in cut quality when you're routing over heavily used areas of the mat? (I'm assuming no, since you're using yours for months, but figured I'd ask)

I guess because I'm cutting so deep into it, that it does affect the bit when it runs over those grooves. Especially something like acrylic - when I run a cleaning pass it's crazy how inconsistent the edge is.

 

[balstestrat]

Thanks for this Jason, much appreciated. Obviously my down position is set way too low which is wasting my mat and possibly cutting the material on the wrong spot on the bit.

I ran a couple of jobs recently where first few cuts were absolutely perfect (Cutting laminated prints on ACM) with great chip extraction and nice clean edges on the aluminum, plastic, and vinyl. The quality of the cuts quickly reduced to the point where the edges were serrated and vinyl/laminate was all chewed up on the edges. This is what prompted me to start looking into this as we can't really seem to get consistent cuts on the router with our Summa, and figured I was probably doing something wrong.

I will adjust my down position offset, double check that the table is level, and then test again with a new bit and report back. I'll also grab some MDF and see how that works, as that stuff if a hell of a lot cheaper than the cutting mats!

Thanks again.

PS. Always enjoy seeing you and your brother's posts on LinkedIn! Quite the operation you have going there.

You know if you cut acm with prints on it might not even be possible depending on the material. The glue just fills your bit and the cut isn't nice after that.

 

[White Haus]

You know if you cut acm with prints on it might not even be possible depending on the material. The glue just fills your bit and the cut isn't nice after that.

Thanks - I'm glad you brought that up. So is it pretty uncommon for shops to mount full sheets of ACM then CNC all the pieces out??? I love this workflow and it is SO much more efficient than what we used to do - cut all the pieces on our sheet cutter (or have them cut on a CNC or saw, depending on quantity), print all the files with crop marks, trim them out, then mount each sign individually.

Even if we have to clean up the edges on the pieces, running full sheets of prints on the CNC is still faster & more efficient.

I do agree that the bit gets gummed up with adhesive after a while - I tried taking it out and cleaning it with alcohol but once it got to that point, it didn't improve the cut quality much.

We have tried masking our sheets before routing with mixed results. 3M 8518 still gets chewed up a little, but Avery DOL 2080 seems to hold up better.

I would definitely like to get this sorted so we can document the process for training purposes etc - which is a little hard to do now since we can't find something that provides consistent results.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

Thanks - I'm glad you brought that up. So is it pretty uncommon for shops to mount full sheets of ACM then CNC all the pieces out??? I love this workflow and it is SO much more efficient than what we used to do - cut all the pieces on our sheet cutter (or have them cut on a CNC or saw, depending on quantity), print all the files with crop marks, trim them out, then mount each sign individually.

Even if we have to clean up the edges on the pieces, running full sheets of prints on the CNC is still faster & more efficient.

I do agree that the bit gets gummed up with adhesive after a while - I tried taking it out and cleaning it with alcohol but once it got to that point, it didn't improve the cut quality much.

We have tried masking our sheets before routing with mixed results. 3M 8518 still gets chewed up a little, but Avery DOL 2080 seems to hold up better.

I would definitely like to get this sorted so we can document the process for training purposes etc - which is a little hard to do now since we can't find something that provides consistent results.

Not at all, you just have to get the right bits and change them often. We use a Onsrud bit with a ceramic Zinc coating that slices through ACP and Soft Aluminum with ease. If you add vinyl it reduces bit life but it still works great. Here is the metric shank version: https://www.onsrud.com/Products/63460.asp

 

[White Haus]

Not at all, you just have to get the right bits and change them often. We use a Onsrud bit with a ceramic Zinc coating that slices through ACP and Soft Aluminum with ease. If you add vinyl it reduces bit life but it still works great. Here is the metric shank version: https://www.onsrud.com/Products/63460.asp

Thanks Christian, will get this on order. I've had good luck with LMT Onsrud and Belin bits so far, but haven't tried any zinc-coated ones. Will give it a go!

Looking at the image, I can really see how cutting too deep would mess things up. Obviously the right part of the bit needs to be making contact in order to cut properly and evacuate the chips, and if we're cutting way too deep that isn't happening.

 

[WYLDGFI]

We have 2 mats for our colex....one for routing and one for knife and other cutting. We'll use both sides up on either mat, it doesn't seem to make that much of a difference if you are careful with your depth of routing and such. You would notice areas that do not cut nicely if you use the router mat for knifing prints apart. Like anything else, managing the use and positioning helps a lot.

 

[FatCat]

I can only speak with experience on the Summa....

Remember, the Summa flatbeds "map" their bed for any imperfections (high spots, low spots, etc.) and keep these in memory for every type of cut and tool. (You can run this as often as you like to keep everything current.)

In addition with their auto depth laser detector which automatically senses the tool and sets the depth limit, you get a very high degree of accuracy. We've had ours for over a year and as of yet have had no accidents cutting into the bed or beyond the cutting mat when using the router.

 

[zspace]

Thanks Alan, good to know. Hopefully this means we don't have to drop $1000+ for another roll anytime soon.

Do you see any noticeable difference in cut quality when you're routing over heavily used areas of the mat? (I'm assuming no, since you're using yours for months, but figured I'd ask)

I guess because I'm cutting so deep into it, that it does affect the bit when it runs over those grooves. Especially something like acrylic - when I run a cleaning pass it's crazy how inconsistent the edge is.

Our system touches the bit to a button placed on the cutting surface so it sets the mat height and blade length to match. We just graze the mat without really cutting into to it.

Our old router doesn't have that and we had to learn how to make underlayment adjustments and blade length settings correct. Every time we change a blade or put on a new mat we have to make changes.

 

[SignEST]

Use a downcutting carbide o-flute for cutting ACM printed panels. It doesn't need a special coating or anything. You do need that MDF sheet underneath to hold your chips. The edges always stay perfect since it pushes the chips down. The chip extraction is minimal due to the chips just packing in and keeping everything in place.

One thing I found with using an upcut with print facing upwards were the tiny flakes of vinyl+ACM panel were all over the prints. Using downcut eliminated that completely and left me with pristine panels job after job. I wish I had a chance to use a camera for the CNC router, I lined stuff up with circles on prints drilled into the table.

Reason not to put prints down is running the chance of scratching something. The vacuum pump also pulls on the print but if that's what people work with and it causes them no issues then all the power to em.

As far as your feeds and speeds go. 16k rpm with 1/8 cutter @ 80-120 IPM 1 pass up to 1/4 thickness. The downcut has a very forgiving feed range when it comes to ACM.

I'm not recommending pushing your machine hard for this type of application. Could always find the sweet point with the correct chip load.

The way you calculate the chip load is very simple. For the numbers I gave you, it's 80/16000 = 0.005 and 120/16000 = 0.0075.

That is PER tooth, so if you have a 2 fluted or more then you need to speed things up. That 120 needs to become 240 to maintain the proper chip load. Or we slow down the spindle to 8000 rpm running at 120 ipm still with 2 flutes but the spindle does not appreciate that garbage.


Cutting MDF/Plywood for example you can go at 750 ipm and it's not too crazy with 2-3 flutes. Acrylic and composite materials not so much.

 

[Flatbed Tools]

Are cutting mats intended to be single use when using a router on a conveyer belt flatbed cutter?

Should cut quality be severely affected when cutting on top of a gently used cutting mat?

Does it makes sense that once cut on both sides the mat would be cut right through? (Down position offset is roughly half the thickness of the mat)

I'm wondering specifically for our Summa F1612 but I would imagine this would apply to any brand/model.

Trying to figure out why our router cuts so inconsistently and considering the cutting mat as one of the culprits.

PS. Anyone have a lead on cheaper cutting mat rolls in Canada, or US?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Flatbed Tools]

Hey there White Haus,
There is a lot of great information from the other members regarding this topic. I will give my $0.02.

Are cutting mats intended to be single use when using a router on a conveyer belt flatbed cutter?
---- Typically, all underlay/underlayment/spoil boards are intended for multiple use. We have had many customers not use an underlayment, depending on the accuracy of the cutter. With that said, adjusting the cutter and the settings in the machine are very important for longevity of the underlayment. The flatter the table, the longer your cutting underlayment will last. I highly suggest dialing in the machine to the underlayment using a test cut or route to find the magic depth for each material and then make that a profile for future runs.

Should cut quality be severely affected when cutting on top of a gently used cutting mat.
--- No. The cutting underlayment is a sacrificial mat usually made up of a polyester material as to route away very easily and not affect the cut.

Does it makes sense that once cut on both sides the mat would be cut right through? (Down position offset is roughly half the thickness of the mat.
--- referencing my earlier reply, the down position offset is critical to not cut through the mat. You also could have some lifting of the material if the chip removal vacuum is overpowering the hold down, which will result in cutting all the way through.

I'm wondering specifically for our Summa F1612 but I would imagine this would apply to any brand/model.
-- It happens to all cutters. Some are definitely more accurate than others, but they all have a slight z axis inconsistency.

Trying to figure out why our router cuts so inconsistently and considering the cutting mat as one of the culprit
-- I would first make sure your table is as level as possible. When a PM is done on the machine, learn how they level it so you can do it yourself more frequently. Also, if your Summa has the table mapping, definitely use it more often than not (possibly put it in the SOP). Always test cut each material because cutting through different materials will require different offsets (and remember then for future runs).

PS. Anyone have a lead on cheaper cutting mat rolls in Canada, or Us.
-- email, or give us a call. We have a few bits that are extremely popular for routing laminated ACM and a few different underlay options at a good price

 

[ZunoX]

on 3mm mdf plate goes vacuum through it or must drilled holes on it ?

 

[johnnysigns]

Low density or medium density MDF shouldn't need holes. We have drilled holes in our old Gerber's high density MDF spoilboard, but that was just because we were worried it wouldn't have enough vacuum draw through the HDF.

 

[ZunoX]

Ok thanks i will try with mdf