Flatbed Printer Advice

[winterk80]

Hello all. First of all wonderful forum, I've really enjoyed reading it over the past few days and weeks!

I've been researching UV printers but I am admittedly very green when it comes to UV printers

What I'm looking to do are the following:
1) PRIMARY USE: Print on 1/4" and 1/4" laser cut plywood. Typical sizes would be 12" x 24" or 12" x 6" So we would cut the rectangular shapes with the laser and then feed those shapes into the flatbed for UV printing.
2) SECONDARY USE: Printing on small 2" or 3" shapes that would be printed on. This could be coasters or the faces of tap handles, whatever. (It's not absolutely necessary that I can do the secondary shapes but it would be really nice to be able to do this.)

Additional info:
1) Each one of the signs changes, so if I print 200 signs this will be 200 different designs (gift market)
2) Typical production would be 50 signs a shift, with potential of up to 500 signs a shift (during peak periods).
3) I will be using the laser to precut these shapes on 1/4" and 1/2" plywood and then putting them on/feeding them into the flatbed. Feeding full sheets in and then cutting them out later is not a possibility. This concerns me on the flatbeds that roll stuff in and out, vs staying stationary or the whole bed moving, will smaller items get caught rolling in out of things like the QC3200?
4) Why are most of the used ones I see from 2008? Do UV printers not last and that's why I see so many around 8 years old, am I getting into a money pit?

Here are the used machines I'm considering
HP 6100-TEMPO-Q
2008 Gandi Jeti 1224
2008 Rho 800
2008/2009 Vutek QS3200
HP FP700 (none currently available)
2007 Fuji Acuity

Looking forward to hearing your advice, it's must appreciated!

(Samples of the signs we are currently doing with sublimation but we will be moving to the UV printer attached)

 

[BigfishDM]

Hello all. First of all wonderful forum, I've really enjoyed reading it over the past few days and weeks!

I've been researching UV printers but I am admittedly very green when it comes to UV printers

What I'm looking to do are the following:
1) PRIMARY USE: Print on 1/4" and 1/4" laser cut plywood. Typical sizes would be 12" x 24" or 12" x 6" So we would cut the rectangular shapes with the laser and then feed those shapes into the flatbed for UV printing.
2) SECONDARY USE: Printing on small 2" or 3" shapes that would be printed on. This could be coasters or the faces of tap handles, whatever. (It's not absolutely necessary that I can do the secondary shapes but it would be really nice to be able to do this.)

Additional info:
1) Each one of the signs changes, so if I print 200 signs this will be 200 different designs (gift market)
2) Typical production would be 50 signs a shift, with potential of up to 500 signs a shift (during peak periods).
3) I will be using the laser to precut these shapes on 1/4" and 1/2" plywood and then putting them on/feeding them into the flatbed. Feeding full sheets in and then cutting them out later is not a possibility. This concerns me on the flatbeds that roll stuff in and out, vs staying stationary or the whole bed moving, will smaller items get caught rolling in out of things like the QC3200?
4) Why are most of the used ones I see from 2008? Do UV printers not last and that's why I see so many around 8 years old, am I getting into a money pit?

Here are the used machines I'm considering
HP 6100-TEMPO-Q
2008 Gandi Jeti 1224
2008 Rho 800
2008/2009 Vutek QS3200
HP FP700 (none currently available)
2007 Fuji Acuity

Looking forward to hearing your advice, it's must appreciated!

(Samples of the signs we are currently doing with sublimation but we will be moving to the UV printer attached)

All those machines your looking at seem pretty old, that could turn into major headaches if there isn't excellent tech support available. The first thing I would do is to take some of your product and TEST the application in those machines. I would recommend sending your pieces out to multiple machine MFG's and see which one does your main application the best way. I literally see this every single day from other clients who get sold on a printer, then find out it cannot do everything the rep promised it could do.

 

[artbot]

if it's small stuff. go small. i'd get a small form factor flatbed. why get a high maintenance beast to print on a tiny substrate? get a uv LED, dx5 based printer and get your feet wet. all of those printers
are like buying a dragster to go get groceries.

... like this 24" x 41". this is one of the major new form factors being licensed in China.
http://www.alibaba.com/product-deta..._1690624237.html?spm=a2700.7724838.0.0.ftkqwX

 

[winterk80]

if it's small stuff. go small. i'd get a small form factor flatbed. why get a high maintenance beast to print on a tiny substrate? get a uv LED, dx5 based printer and get your feet wet. all of those printers
are like buying a dragster to go get groceries.

... like this 24" x 41". this is one of the major new form factors being licensed in China.
http://www.alibaba.com/product-deta..._1690624237.html?spm=a2700.7724838.0.0.ftkqwX

Thanks for the reply.

Maintenance is definitely a concern. However that one you suggested and the others I found googling dx5 uv printer are a little too small for our needs. They would only fit one or two signs on the bed and is a little too slow for the volume we need. I've was looking looked at those small type machines before looking at flatbeds. They typically take 20+- minutes a single board depending on the machine, some take longer. Giving us a maximum capacity of 50-80 signs a day. The flatbeds I have suggested are probably overkill for everything except peak, but maybe there is something in-between the two extremes? Also any thoughts on the flatbeds I listed pro/cons vs each other? Any other flatbed suggestions are also welcome!

 

[DerbyCitySignGuy]

How much are you planning on spending?

If you're doing lots of smallish prints in high volume, something like the swissQprint Nyala 2 might be worth checking out. The Tandem feature is amazing, it's fast, and the quality is good. Of course, they're not cheap and there's a pretty long lead time, since they're all made to order. I think when we were looking at one it was about four months.

I believe the Tandem feature also exists on their smaller models too, the Impala and the Oryx.

 

[VISCOM]

CET has a 40" x 60" table

 

[winterk80]

I'd like to spend in the $60k installed range I could bump budgets to up to $100k installed if that gave me significantly more machine. That's part of the reason I was looking at used machines a lot can be bought for $35k or less from the garage uaed printer sutem Factoring another $10-$15k for install and any unforeseen maintaince issues. But many I'm thinking incorrectly about buying used? Are these all money pits?

How much are you planning on spending?

If you're doing lots of smallish prints in high volume, something like the swissQprint Nyala 2 might be worth checking out. The Tandem feature is amazing, it's fast, and the quality is good. Of course, they're not cheap and there's a pretty long lead time, since they're all made to order. I think when we were looking at one it was about four months.

I believe the Tandem feature also exists on their smaller models too, the Impala and the Oryx.

 

[Gino]

Money pit.......??

It's all in how you perceive it.

• If you bought a little chevy coupe, you'd expect the upkeep, insurance and whatever to be a normal amount.
• Buy a Vette and it'll probably go up from the first car.
• Get into a Rolls Royce and you'll see a considerable jump.

If you wanna play in the big games, then be prepared to spend to make. If you nickel and dime yourself, you'll never grow, nor should you, if you think small. You need to look at all aspects of your venture, not just one of the end results. There'll be many end results you're not used to.

 

[DerbyCitySignGuy]

I'd like to spend in the $60k installed range I could bump budgets to up to $100k installed if that gave me significantly more machine. That's part of the reason I was looking at used machines a lot can be bought for $35k or less from the garage uaed printer sutem Factoring another $10-$15k for install and any unforeseen maintaince issues. But many I'm thinking incorrectly about buying used? Are these all money pits?

I wouldn't buy used unless it comes with a warranty or you're willing to pay for a service contract. Flatbeds can be finicky and depending on the issue, very expensive to fix.

I totally agree with Artbot and Gino on both fronts. You either have to go small and stick to your niche, or go big and try to pick up more business (and grow your business).

I also don't think you're going to find a good quality (true) flatbed that's going to do everything you want at that price range.

 

[nate]

I have a fb700 that is for sale if you're interested. If you're able to look for new machines check out vanguard digital. The owner is Dave cich who made cet what it is today. He's got two fantastic models out now.

 

[artbot]

one thing that it's hard for us businessmen to do is allow ourselves to be proven wrong. when ramping up a new business model, switching equipment/spaces/markets, etc. things take often twice as long to finally gear up. hell.. sometimes three times as long. then when it takes off you've got a whole new set of problems. if you are currently selling at this production pace, then yes. buy a machine that is the bees knees. if not and it's all "on paper" yada yada-trade show this- new website that.... get a smaller slower cheaper machine and let the business prove to you what a genius you are an you really did need a pro level piece of equipment. there's nothing wrong with going small to medium and slow while getting your product up and skippity. there is definitely something wrong with standing in a room full of shiny spectacular equipment that needs to run all day or will literally "break itself" because of part time use. clients make business great. not equipment. one thing you might also consider is finish. if you are used to dye subbing how will the new product look. lots of uv inks have a grain to them. this may be off putting to your clients. also, if "each sign is different" you need to incorporate a good/complex rip that won't slow you down. maybe the printer will be fast but the constant fiddling with the computer will be slow.

 

[winterk80]

Thank you all. Excellent advice all around!

Talked to HP fb 550 can be had new at the ISA show for right around $70k + ship + rip + training. Probably 80k fully loaded. Liked it.

Two things concern me
1) Maintenance contract they quoted $600-$1500 a month is this high or normal?
2) Head strikes very concerning with the wood as all wood warps HP has no protection to detect a eminent head strike before it happens unlike some other vendors I talked to. Can set 1.2 mm above surface they said but...
3) Speaking of head strikes any ideas on how to attach or strap the wood to something that would still allow these cut out signs to be printed in and keep them flat? I checked some boards 1/4 can have up to a 8mm variance in height 1/2" up to 4.5 mm variance.

one thing that it's hard for us businessmen to do is allow ourselves to be proven wrong. when ramping up a new business model, switching equipment/spaces/markets, etc. things take often twice as long to finally gear up. hell.. sometimes three times as long. then when it takes off you've got a whole new set of problems. if you are currently selling at this production pace, then yes. buy a machine that is the bees knees. if not and it's all "on paper" yada yada-trade show this- new website that.... get a smaller slower cheaper machine and let the business prove to you what a genius you are an you really did need a pro level piece of equipment. there's nothing wrong with going small to medium and slow while getting your product up and skippity. there is definitely something wrong with standing in a room full of shiny spectacular equipment that needs to run all day or will literally "break itself" because of part time use. clients make business great. not equipment. one thing you might also consider is finish. if you are used to dye subbing how will the new product look. lots of uv inks have a grain to them. this may be off putting to your clients. also, if "each sign is different" you need to incorporate a good/complex rip that won't slow you down. maybe the printer will be fast but the constant fiddling with the computer will be slow.

 

[Gino]

Unless you have a very strong vacuum, wood is not a good item to be using on a flatbed. Any cupping will result in harmful head strikes. When various substrates pass under the lights, the heat generated from them tend to make them behave a little differnet, than when first putting them on the bed. Aluminum sheeting is another one which doesn't wanna cooperate, due to the additional heat. The tolerance is what it is and there's no fooling Mother Nature.

 

[ChrisN]

3) Speaking of head strikes any ideas on how to attach or strap the wood to something that would still allow these cut out signs to be printed in and keep them flat? I checked some boards 1/4 can have up to a 8mm variance in height 1/2" up to 4.5 mm variance.

I have printed plaques made of old barn boards, and they were so warped there was over 1/4" height difference between the highest and lowest spots. I have a CET flatbed, which can automatically measure the height of the substrate. What I did was move the board around on the table so the height measuring foot hit the highest point on the board. I then positioned the board for printing, and printed uni-directionally. I didn't even have the vacuum on, since it wouldn't have helped anything. The text got a bit fuzzy in the lowest spots due to the distance of the heads off the substrate, but it was good considering what it was being printed on.

 

[DerbyCitySignGuy]

Thank you all. Excellent advice all around!

Talked to HP fb 550 can be had new at the ISA show for right around $70k + ship + rip + training. Probably 80k fully loaded. Liked it.

Two things concern me
1) Maintenance contract they quoted $600-$1500 a month is this high or normal?
2) Head strikes very concerning with the wood as all wood warps HP has no protection to detect a eminent head strike before it happens unlike some other vendors I talked to. Can set 1.2 mm above surface they said but...
3) Speaking of head strikes any ideas on how to attach or strap the wood to something that would still allow these cut out signs to be printed in and keep them flat? I checked some boards 1/4 can have up to a 8mm variance in height 1/2" up to 4.5 mm variance.

If you can get a contract for $600 a month, that's pretty darn good. $1500 is a little on the high end, but not something that's totally out of the park crazy.

I try not to print directly to wood unless I absolutely have to. As mentioned above, the only real way to ensure you don't get strikes is to set your head height to the highest point on your board, but it's going to get fuzzy in low spots.

Is it possible to make a jig from a thinner material and just drop your already cut pieces in to print them?

 

[boxerbay]

buy a wood planer to run the boards through first so they become parallel.

 

[toomeycustoms]

buy a wood planer to run the boards through first so they become parallel.

It's plywood, not hardwood. Planing it would risk loosing the veneer.

We have a similar product and we use the Roland LEF-20. It's slow and limited to a 20"x12" piece, but they do have a 30" wide version now. You could get 2 of the Rolands for redundancy for the cost of the larger flatbed. I have also been looking into govividusa UV printers for a mid sized bed.

 

[TimToad]

I can't speak to the service contracts or warranties for other products, but our Gerber service contract EXCLUDES head replacement caused by headstrikes. As with any extended warranty or service contract, READ THE FINE PRINT!

We pay about $650 per month on an older, nearly obsolete workhorse that when running great kicks out the work and in two years time, I can't remember even a two day period when it wasn't able to run. That being said, our contract covers EVERYTHING, parts, labor, travel, lodging, food, etc. time for the tech and its a rare visit that doesn't include at least one overnight stay and several hundred miles of driving.

With the kind of warp variances in your primary substrates, the planer suggestion seems like a very good idea.

 

[artbot]

i'd keep in mind that if you are wanting to ramp up production, the fastest, most reliable, method of production, will never be a "sped up version" of how you are presently doing it. i'd get to also thinking completely
out of the box. or instance, you could be printing on Dinoc which doesn't even require a flatbed. you could be printing on pvc membrane foils and the equipment you really need is a membrane press. production is
always a path of least resistance. and "how fast a machine goes" is rarely the bottle neck. avoiding rejects (head crashes), registration issues, and edge finishing will usually be what slows things down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clo8VN9grPs

 

[Correct Color]

4) Why are most of the used ones I see from 2008? Do UV printers not last and that's why I see so many around 8 years old, am I getting into a money pit?

The main reason you see so many older ones for sale is that head technology has come quite a long ways in the past eight years. Most of the machines you've listed there have heads that print in the 15-30 picoliter dot size range, whereas most new machines are under 10 picoliter, and what that means in the real world is the newer machines print much better fine detail stuff.

However, honestly, they're not always better machines.

If you don't care all that much about small detail and want a bullet-proof reliable machine, consider the Gandi 1224. Those things are built like tanks. With the right ink -- and profiles, of course -- they're also capable of putting out some really good color. I've been in many, many places, and the operators have looked at the Gandi and said something like, 'that thing will be the last thing in here to die.'

If you want to go new, Flora is worth a look. And Vanguard Digital might be as well, although I've yet to see one, so I can't speak from personal knowledge.