font limitations in XP sp2 (related to Adobe CS2)

[iSign]

I discovered an issue I hadn't heard about earlier.
I had typed up a post, then wanted to troubleshoot a little further before opening up a discussion, so I copied it & saved it. It ended up corrupting into dozens of text blocks instead of one long paragraph, so it is not so easy to post it here. That incident above is not the actual issue... just an explanation of why I am going to paste that "discussion" as an image file.

The main topic is that I had 950 fonts on my system because I was under the impression that XP could handle that load... & in fact it has been doing so just fine for a few years... but Adobe Illustrator CS2 has it's own issues with the number of fonts on a system & I wanted to find out if others had discovered this as well, & what others have done about it. Basically I think it's time I learned more about font management programs & different folks work-flow approach regarding how they deal with owning more fonts then they want available at all times.

First here is my attempt to post the topic I originally wrote:

 

[Pro Signs & Graphix]

Very interesting Doug. We started using the Bitsream many years ago, due to Windows' limitations and problems, so we cannot say that we have "seen" any further font issues.

It is odd that Adobe "created" an issue, with no fix.

I, personally, am very curious about typeface managers and their performance. Bitsream has a problem that seems to have never been corrected. For some strange reason, Bitsream seems to "lose" fonts - giving a message something like "not found", which in turn causes a need to re-install the font. Sometimes a very aggravating issue, but another reason why all files are "converted to curves".

 

[Fred Weiss]

Initial comments towards covering the basics. Not intended to imply that you are not competent in these areas.

• 950 fonts is a huge drain on system resources even if you have a skyrocket of a machine. I would recommend continuing your former habit of periodically removing those you don't need all the time.

• I just tested my Programs Folder by allowing Typograf to find all fonts in it. Of the fonts found, 285 of them were in subfolders of the Adobe folder. Most are in the CS2 folders and many of them are Open Type fonts which I've been scratching my head trying to figure out where they had come from when they show up on various application font menus. The potential for conflicts with the same fonts being installed from my other archives concerns me.

• There is, of course, a proper way to install and remove fonts in any Windows system. That is to use the Fonts > File > Install or Delete command. This insures that the Windows registry is properly updated.

• Do you have any sort of maintenance utility such as Norton SystemWorks to run routine tests for common problems and registry issues?

As you may have gathered, I think your most likely problem here is one of overextended resources. I would try to find a solution first by running some basic testing applications like Norton to see if anything shows up. If that didn't do it, the next thing I would do would be to archive all fonts in my Windows\Fonts folder and then empty it of all fonts other than what you know must be kept. This I would do using the Fonts > File > Delete command. I would then reboot and check to see if the problem was still present. If not, then start adding the fonts back in until the problem reappears.

 

[iSign]

thanks guys.

I had some late afternoon obligations that kept me from filling out the initial post all the way up to date, so here is the rest of the info.

I do always install fonts through the control panel>fonts>install new font ..but for removing fonts, I just went to windows explorer, SO I AM OPEN TO SUGGESTIONS AS TO WHAT STEPS I SHOULD TAKE NOW AS A RESULT OF THAT MISTAKE

Actually after the reduction of fonts alone didn't solve the problem, I uninstalled Illustrator CS2 through windows "add/remove programs" utility.

Then I reinstalled CS2 & tested it's ability to launch properly & to create & save files. After the several failed tests over the last few days starting with the trouble shooting done with Adobe's tech support guy... this reinstall with only 62 fonts on hand did the trick!! I finally got everything to work!!

There was another very strange problem that had been bothering me far more then not being able to use CS2. I wasn't sure it was related, so I didn't mention it to the tech because sometimes I have to focus on one problem at a time if I am dealing with something over my head where too much information may overload my ability to retain it.

Anyway... whenever I had Illustrator (ver. 9) & Photoshop 6 both open (like every day for the last 10 years)... I would get this strange occurance after exporting an illustrator file as an RGB .jpg (which I do several times a day to email (or post) proofs & images. My next step is always to open them in Photoshop to have a final look... possibly crop them & resize them. So, when I'd click the photoshop "quicklaunch" icon from my task bar... Photoshop would pop up with no tools or text, as though it was waiting for resources to complete redrawing. It would not redraw though, & I soon discovered that for several days... every time I'd go through these steps, if I'd go back to illustrator, I'd see this:

...once I'd click OK, I could go back to Photoshop & everything was fine.

I don't know what I might have done right before this happened, but I just bought about 40 fonts, so I might have tipped the scale with those & begun to see these problems as a result. But... as mentioned in the pasted image above, before reducing my fonts to 62, I had pared down to 600 without correcting the problems.

Anyway, this strange problem also went away once I was down to the 62 fonts. I then loaded another 200 or so in 3 different segments, launching creating, saving from, & then closing CS2 between each. It is still working.

So besides warning others... & seeking any further information on this issue... I also want to learn good ways of keeping fonts on my system AND EASILY EXAMINED to make the perusal, selection & access to them as seamless as possible without actually having them installed.

What programs will help me do that? I own (but don't use) Corel 9, which I bought just for the fonts about 8 years ago. Does it's font navigator offer something like this? I've never tried to use it, or any other utility like this... but I think my time has finally come to educate myself about this area of font juggling & take steps to implement something like this asap.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Fred Weiss]

Bitstream's Font Navigator is one solution for font management. I had it installed a few years ago and had problems with it running out of memory during an extended browsing session. That may have been my own problem as the computer I was using had only 256 MB of RAM. Since you have it, you may want to test it to see how you like it.

The Font Thing is a free download at Letterhead Fonts. I have not tried it but I have only heard good comments about it.

Typograf is the font manager I have used for a number of years and I have nothing but good to say about it. It is shareware and requires a $35 lifetime registration fee after 30 days of use.

Any of these products serve multi-purposes.

• They facilitate font matching and creative selection of uninstalled fonts by allowing you to view them in any text string you choose to enter.
• They provide the ability to install or uninstall individual fonts direct from within the application.
• They provide for printouts of all or selected fonts without them having to be installed.
• They provide additional organizational functions which will allow the installation or removal of predesignated groups of fonts.

 

[signage]

I have a question can these be run by other users on the system other than administrator? Bitstream you need to be logged on as administrator. If you are able to run this as a user let em know how you are doing it.

 

[Fred Weiss]

I have a question can these be run by other users on the system other than administrator? Bitstream you need to be logged on as administrator. If you are able to run this as a user let em know how you are doing it.

That sounds like your own setup. I run Typograf from any of my four workstations and have all fonts stored on my network drive. The application itself is installed on each workstation.

 

[GB2]

"There is, of course, a proper way to install and remove fonts in any Windows system. That is to use the Fonts > File > Install or Delete command. This insures that the Windows registry is properly updated."

Typograf is the font manager I have used for a number of years and I have nothing but good to say about it. It is shareware and requires a $35 lifetime registration fee after 30 days of use.

Any of these products serve multi-purposes.

"They facilitate font matching and creative selection of uninstalled fonts by allowing you to view them in any text string you choose to enter.
They provide the ability to install or uninstall individual fonts direct from within the application.
They provide for printouts of all or selected fonts without them having to be installed.
They provide additional organizational functions which will allow the installation or removal of predesignated groups of fonts."


Fred, this discussion has gone back and forth before and I'm not clear on these issues either. Your position has been fairly consistent regarding the installation and deletion of fonts using Font Manager however, you state that you use Typograph and it has the capability to install/uninstall, as does Bitstream. So, do you believe that using these programs for installation and deletion of fonts is a proper thing to do or should it always be done using Font Manager?

I have over 1000 fonts installed on my system and 50,000 fonts on the PC but not installed. With those numbers it has its advantages and disadvantages when working with fonts. I seem to have non-specific "issues" sometimes also, which I believe can be attributed to the number of fonts installed. With the un-installed fonts it's nice to have them available when searching for something but it becomes quite a chore to go through 50,000 on a routine basis. I'm never satisfied until I've exhausted every option when searching for something and I can't help but go through them all....

 

[iSign]

OK, this is sounding helpful.

I can build ONE collection of fonts in ONE place (like a mapped network storage device)

I can purchase & install Typograf (or other) on my 4 workstations.

I can group the massive collection of fonts into subgroups (like 62 system fonts for example)

I can browse (& sample) uninstalled fonts, install, & later uninstall fonts from each station... through the typograf interface, where the subset (once I create one) of 62 system fonts will always remain easily identifiable, to avoid accidental removal.

Regardless of what fonts are currently installed (at any given time) on my Edge workstation, Mimaki WS, or my Customer Service WS... if I open a design with a "font not found" ...I can easily install that from the network drive... & remove it later.

AND... if I maintain more reasonable quantities of fonts, I should see increased performance on all machines?

This gives new meaning to "independance day"

 

[Fred Weiss]

Fred, this discussion has gone back and forth before and I'm not clear on these issues either. Your position has been fairly consistent regarding the installation and deletion of fonts using Font Manager however, you state that you use Typograph and it has the capability to install/uninstall, as does Bitstream. So, do you believe that using these programs for installation and deletion of fonts is a proper thing to do or should it always be done using Font Manager?

I have over 1000 fonts installed on my system and 50,000 fonts on the PC but not installed. With those numbers it has its advantages and disadvantages when working with fonts. I seem to have non-specific "issues" sometimes also, which I believe can be attributed to the number of fonts installed. With the un-installed fonts it's nice to have them available when searching for something but it becomes quite a chore to go through 50,000 on a routine basis. I'm never satisfied until I've exhausted every option when searching for something and I can't help but go through them all....

I can see where this may seem like a contradiction, so let me clarify.

The thing NOT TO DO is simply to drag and drop fonts to install them and selecting and deleting them using with the Windows Explorer or My Computer paths. I have seen indications that many Windows users use the drag and drop method so I regularly warn against it. My understanding is that font managers like Typograf do their installing and uninstalling while meeting the needs of the Windows registry.

As to organizing 50,000 fonts ... there would certainly be a need. Most font managers are very useful to make this easier because you can visually sort them out using the Move function. Mine are separated into groups like Scripts, Sans Serif etc. to reduce browsing time later on. I also spent a huge amount of time (more than 200 hours) eliminating duplicates (clones) from roughly the same number of fonts (50K), along with fonts I felt I would never use, and ended up with a more streamlined library of only 5,000 fonts. That investment in time has paid me back a hundred fold since.

 

[Fred Weiss]

OK, this is sounding helpful.

I can build ONE collection of fonts in ONE place (like a mapped network storage device)

I can purchase & install Typograf (or other) on my 4 workstations.

I can group the massive collection of fonts into subgroups (like 62 system fonts for example)

I can browse (& sample) uninstalled fonts, install, & later uninstall fonts from each station... through the typograf interface, where the subset (once I create one) of 62 system fonts will always remain easily identifiable, to avoid accidental removal.

Regardless of what fonts are currently installed (at any given time) on my Edge workstation, Mimaki WS, or my Customer Service WS... if I open a design with a "font not found" ...I can easily install that from the network drive... & remove it later.

AND... if I maintain more reasonable quantities of fonts, I should see increased performance on all machines?

This gives new meaning to "independance day"

I agree with your summary.

 

[iSign]

...it becomes quite a chore to go through 50,000 on a routine basis. I'm never satisfied until I've exhausted every option when searching for something and I can't help but go through them all....

ahh yes, the old quality vs. quantity dilemma is affecting your production... If you are constantly perusing 50,000 fonts to achieve the quality designs you strive for, this chore most certainly cuts into the quantity of your productive output... what you need, IMO... is a serious case of getting busier :Big Laugh

I hate to admit it, but even as a quality oriented shop, who is not looking to compete at the "instant sign" game... I have adapted to allowing my "never satisfied" tendencies to take a back seat to the realities of a more demanding workload. Then I can wrestle more time out for the key projects that either justify the time based on selling price... or just to give in a fair share of the time to my own quality driven nature.

...just my 2 cents for what it's worth

 

[2NinerNiner2]

Fred makes an excellent point to invest the time to go through and cull your font collection and then organize it using one of the mentioned utilities. Something I have been meaning to do, but those dang round tuits STILL haven't shown up yet!

Happy Fourth of July to y'all!

 

[Ian Stewart-Koster]

"The Font Thing" is a freebee utility. I used to use BT FontNav, but have used The Font Thing for a few years now, especially to install fonts, and have not (yet ) had any glitches in the font department at all.
The Fonts folder in windows has its stable set, and when I need something not installed, The font thing does a rapid catalogueing of all fonts in other folders on the computer and you can preview & install what's specially needed from there.

 

[Bobby H]

With regards to Adobe CS2 and Adobe Production Studio, I move all the standard OpenType fonts from the C:\Program Files\Common Files\Adobe\Fonts folder and save them elsewhere. The only ones I leave behind are the Asian-based fonts and the Type1 Fonts in the Reqrd subfolder. With CS2 Premium you have over 200 fonts installed in that folder and they all load themselves -on top of what you have in the C:\Windows\Fonts folder whenever you launch any Adobe application. That's a LOT of fonts. I don't need that many fonts installed at once.

As far as font managers go, I use Adobe Type Manager 4.1 Lite. I mainly use Type 1 and OpenType fonts. And I am able to keep my Type 1 Multiple Master fonts alive (such as fonts like Nueva and Penumbra). If I need to install a True Type Font it's no big deal to open that regular Windows Fonts thing.

At any given time I may have around 300-400 fonts installed on my system. I clean out old ones and replace them with others I haven't used in awhile on a regular basis.

 

[tken]

there's also a free program called "Font Loader", very helpful to me (i use around ~3000 fonts grouped in folders... italics, sans, dingbats and so on.. )

here it is, hope it helps:

http://www.downloadjunction.com/product/software/46096/index.html