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...for all you Photoshop experts!

javila

New Member
Sorry but that whole file resolution to print resolution is totally offbase. First indicator is that you refer to file resolutions as DPI.

RIPs don't interpret information by "inch" instead they intepret information by "lines" or "passes". The PPI will only slow the RIP down the higher it goes. There is no link between image ppi and print dpi for RIP speed.

Embeded or links file are in no way altered by illustrator when scaled inside the program. You can easily tell this by the fact that as objects are scaled the PPI of the image changes accordingly. The same effect turning off "resample" when changing sizes in photoshop, no image info manipulation just size ratios.
 

iSign

New Member
javila, you may be right, but your challenge of the above information is not convincing. dpi, ppi... big deal. Semantics really... if we consider a pixel being called a "dot".. (which ain't hard to picture) then it's the same damn thing. PPI may be more the currently accepted term, but it wasn't always.

Regarding embedded image files not being altered when scaled within Illustrator, again, your short and sweet efforts to refute the earlier post is too little to justify your claims, just an offer to take your word for it.

Admittedly no expert myself, I don't know about this, but I think eforer was suggesting illustrator would only foul up the embedded images when rastorizing the final composite.
 

eforer

New Member
thanks pickles... I mean eforer!
that was very educational Probably ought to copy & paste it into it's own thread, but I'm going to remember how to get back here.

I violate several of your taboo procedures, like exporting .ai files (with embedded rastor componants) as .tiff files for 90% of my printing.

When you bring in rastor images as linked files, tweak all your sizes to your satisfaction & then record those final sizes...

If you resize with GF plug-ins in PS, do you have to carefully place each image exactly where the old one was, & then delete the old one... or do you just resave with the same name & let Adobe "update links"?

WOW!! 720x720 at 16 pass... and then you compromise all that quality onto coroplast?? ...for such an obviously bright professional... that just sounds crazy to me. I guess I'm just not a fan of the coroplast flute texture :rolleyes:

Thanks again for the time spent explaining all that. I'm going to go online & check ouit the cost of genuine fractals print pro plug-in now. I'm convinced that you know what you're talking about... so even if I don't understand it all, better tools will lead to better work, even if I don't understand everything about it at first.

Cloroplast was the customers bag, I just make the prints. You don't have to change the placement when you update links, it will leave your layout in tact.

Yes PPI is correct, DPI is the smallest dot a nozzle can fire and its a useless measurement more or less (made even more useless by variable dot size machines). The reality is, most people (incorrectly) use them interchangeably. Ask a graphic designer what PPI. Ya got me. That said

Javvila: A raster image processor (RIP) is a component used in a printing system which produces a bitmap. The bitmap is then sent to a printing device for output. The input may be a page description in a high-level page description language such as PostScript, Portable Document Format, XPS or another bitmap of higher or lower resolution than the output device. In the latter case, the RIP applies either smoothing or interpolation algorithms to the input bitmap to generate the output bitmap. -Thanks Wikipedia!

While the above post simplifies some of the elements and ignores some. The basic principal holds true. Your printer has a finite hardware determined resolution. There is the "LPI" (somewhat of a misnomer but an old industry accepted term) meaning lines per inch. This is actually the number of discreet cells made of of the dots of ink a printer uses to describe a single area of tone. There is an inversely proportional relationships between the LPI (again cells of tone per inch) and range of tone. This is because you can fit fewer individual dots of color from each ink reservoir in each cell as the cell size decreases and the density increases. For example, if you have a printer with a true fixed dpi (and I mean real dpi) of 1440, and your LPI is 1440, you will only be able to express 7 tones with a 6 color system as only 1 dot will fit per cell. A larger cell (read lower LPI) can contain more dots to express that region of tone and therefore is afforded more range of color for each zone. Variable dot size is another means of increasing tonal range per cell.

Looking at the printer in terms of a pure density resolution (ignoring the aforementioned relationship between LPI or discreet cells of tone and dots of color, the colors that define the tone of the cell) the goal is to create the most direct relationship between the images density (ppi) and the printers density. When these numbers aren't one to one, or worse yet share no common factors, the RIP has to flat out do more work interpolating the file data to resolve it for the printer. I'm not saying a 1440 PPI image will rip faster than a 360, but if your printers LPI is the same as the images ppi, the rip has less work to do, so re-sampling your image (which like it or not the rip is doing if this ratio isn't 1:1) even 60 ppi can yield benefits in ultimate print quality due to removing interpolation by the rip and improve speed as the rip is doing less interpolation (work) to create the instructions for the machine. Furthermore, all RIPs due a crummy job of re-sampling as they pretty much all use a nearest neighbor method of filling in or removing data. The result, noise, jaggies artifacts etc etc. The methods used in Genuine Fractals are much more sophisticated and the re-sampling produces noticeable differences.

Finally, as far as the illustrator thing to rip goes. If you send it to rip as an AI file with embedded images resized in the file, the RIP is going to re-sample/interpolate it, and rips don't excel at that. Even a photoshop bi-cubic does a better job. Doing a resize with a non-re sample on raster art and sending it to the rip is more of the same. The RIP will interpolate it to meet the density of the printer. If you feed your printer something that is a 1:1 ratio in terms of density, or evenly divisible, you'll get better results requiring less processing power. End of story


1 addendum that just occurred to me. Even with the relatively standard wide format heads in most machines, the actual density of the machine is not super cut and dry. It is highly dependent on the range of dot sizes on variable dot machines, the number of colors available etc. What it comes down to though is that there will be a common factor that can be used that will work better. The cell size in terms of dots must be an integer as you can't have half a dot, so that limits things too. I have found that 90, 180 and 360 produces the best results (the factor of 12 thing breaks down at 96/90 as that droplet size when fixed can't yeild an integer from the heads on a Mimaki so interpolation uglies ensue). The trade off is sharpness and detail for transitional color smoothness. One of the reasons I only do 6 color is it lets me eek out a little more tonality from a higher density print. On crappy banners with big long gradients, I like 90 dpi as the tonal range per cell is higher and gradients look way smoother. Keep in mind the trade off is exponential too.
 
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mark in tx

New Member
Can I try putting this into simple terms?
(Anyone is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong)

I want to print a 4 foot by 4 foot sign and I want the output resolution to be 300 dpi.

I design in photoshop at 1/4 scale, 1 foot by 1 foot at 1200 dpi.

When I enlarge to final size, 4x4, the output will be 300 dpi apparent.

Just because the printer can output 1400 dpi, doesn't mean the RIP is going to take that 300 dpi enlarged file and make it 1400 dpi, it is going to be 300 dpi.
 
S

Sign-Man Signs

Guest
Firstly, lets clarify something about artwork and resolution. File size is whats ie, its ultimately down to pixel count of your file. An 8X10 image at 300 dpi is the same filesize and ultimately resolves the same information as the same image at 4X5 @ 600 dpi. In other words, its the same number of pixels the exact same image, the same amount of data stored identically. The only relevance to the different denotation of the image size is that it sets the size for your RIP.

When you take an 4X5 image thats 300dpi and enlarge to an 8X10 image at 300dpi, you must perform re-sampling. This is because the grid of pixels that makes up your image is now 4 times larger in area. The software must now fill in information to occupy the new larger pixel grid based on the original file data. The computer re-samples the image adding color information to the new pixels, remember for every 1 pixel in your starting image, the computer has to add 4 new ones based off the color of that one pixel and the pixel surrounding it. Photoshop uses bi-cubic re-sampling which produces heinously ugly results. Photozoomer and my personal favorite Genuine Fractals use more sophisticated mathematical models to add in this new information. The resized files look waaayyy friggin' better. In general, bi-cubic re-sampling results in alot of chroma noise as the color model does a relatively crude average of the surrounding RGB info, the plug ins produce enlargements that looks smoother and alot less noisy. Noise Ninja is a great plug-in to run after re-sampling to help further tame the noise added by the re-sampling process.

Boogie is also correct, if you use a factor common to the various output resolutions found on your machine (generally 12) your RIPs will go faster and your prints will look better. This is because the rip has to do generally less work interpolating the image to meet its native print resolutions. For example, if you have a machine that prints at 720 dpi, you'll get a generally better result if the image you rip is 360 dpi vs 400 dpi even though the 400 dpi image ultimately resolves more data! This is because the pixel grid is easily translated to the dots of ink fired by the print head. Simply put, its easier to make 4 pixels 8 dots than it is to make 5 pixels 8 dots. The computer will have to compromise on the values of said pixels to best represent the input data where as when you work within the multiples of the native resolution, it simply multiply the quantity of any give pixel by (in this case) 2 on both axis.

Finally, working size in illustrator does matter, it shouldn't but it does. Working in a smaller scale for what ever reason in illustrator has benefits in terms of speed even while working with pure vector data. This is a product of crummy programming. If you use a spline based cad application, the only thing that impacts performance is the number of vertices, the complexity of the curve interpolation and the level of detail you choose to resolve to on your screen. Vectors are mathematical representations of lines and shapes (remember Y=X squared makes a smile!) and the complexity of the math should be the only determinate factor of load placed on the cpu. For some reason when illustrator is worked on with a big project and you set your art board at 1:1 scale, things slow down more than they would with the same vector data scaled down. It makes no sense, but it happens in practice (thus far in my experience with cad and graphics software this issue is pretty unique to illustrator). Also, vectors are cpu number crunchers and raster eats ram, so spec your system to your bias. Don't think that doubling your ram is going to impact vector editing beyond helping cope with the excessive bloat of the software itself. It won't make your machine crunch the vectors any faster. Same goes for RIPping, the large quantity of ram is helpful in that it lets you store the data to be ripped in ram vs spooling it off the hard disk (the FSB speed is wwaaaay fastater than the SATA, IDE SAS bus) but the real work is done by the CPU. Also, most rips aren't multi-threaded in the sense that it can rip a single file using multiple cores or chips. Most will apportion a core or cpu to each rip job. So if your a 1 job at a time guy, a really expensive quad core xeon isn't going to help much. In fact, a 3.6ghz p4 extreme might be a better route.

Jesus..Christ! Do you guys lay wake at night and figure this stuff out!
Holy Crap.... If I tried all this to figure out a job, I'd cut my wrist with my Olfa Knife, new blade of course. I admire all of you guys that have the patience and know how do do all this stuff. Damn, I hate getting old...sigh

:Sleeping: :Sleeping: :Sleeping: :Sleeping: :Sleeping: :Sleeping: :Sleeping: :Sleeping:
 

javila

New Member
javila, you may be right, but your challenge of the above information is not convincing. dpi, ppi... big deal. Semantics really... if we consider a pixel being called a "dot".. (which ain't hard to picture) then it's the same damn thing. PPI may be more the currently accepted term, but it wasn't always.

Regarding embedded image files not being altered when scaled within Illustrator, again, your short and sweet efforts to refute the earlier post is too little to justify your claims, just an offer to take your word for it.

Admittedly no expert myself, I don't know about this, but I think eforer was suggesting illustrator would only foul up the embedded images when rastorizing the final composite.


Okay, just know there's some false information in there somewhere. His posts might be filled with words, but there's some stuff in there that's wrong. Sadly I don't have the time to expound parapgraphs upon paragraphs of basic level information about resolutions, how printers work, and how RIPs interpret images.
 

eforer

New Member
One of the few benefits of having had a crappy data entry job at one point in your life is you can type really fast :Big Laugh Anyways, I'm not trying to be combative.
 
S

SignTech

Guest
"Jesus..Christ! Do you guys lay wake at night and figure this stuff out!
Holy Crap.... If I tried all this to figure out a job, I'd cut my wrist with my Olfa Knife, new blade of course. I admire all of you guys that have the patience and know how do do all this stuff. Damn, I hate getting old...sigh"

:Sleeping: :Sleeping: :Sleeping: :Sleeping: :Sleeping: :Sleeping: :Sleeping: :Sleeping:

LMAO ........... I almost got dizzy reading all this too .............

Tell ya what however eforer you know your Sh*&^ as well as others. I for one will keep this thread .......... print out the college classroom information and read when I have time .......... cause I think when I read it and pull it apart ......... this thread will give us a great education on raster vs vector to print etc ....... GREAT job guys.

~M
 

eforer

New Member
"Jesus..Christ! Do you guys lay wake at night and figure this stuff out!
Holy Crap.... If I tried all this to figure out a job, I'd cut my wrist with my Olfa Knife, new blade of course. I admire all of you guys that have the patience and know how do do all this stuff. Damn, I hate getting old...sigh"

:Sleeping: :Sleeping: :Sleeping: :Sleeping: :Sleeping: :Sleeping: :Sleeping: :Sleeping:

LMAO ........... I almost got dizzy reading all this too .............

Tell ya what however eforer you know your Sh*&^ as well as others. I for one will keep this thread .......... print out the college classroom information and read when I have time .......... cause I think when I read it and pull it apart ......... this thread will give us a great education on raster vs vector to print etc ....... GREAT job guys.

~M

Thanks, I don't go that crazy on workflow for most things. I like photography as a hobby, so when I shoot the pictures I like to do the little extras. When I first started in on that workflow, I was really surprised at how much nicer the prints came out. I highly recommend it for someone if they have a personal project. Most of the time I do things in a more normal way, its not worth it in terms of $$/time to go that nuts unless its fun or a personal project. I like cars too, so doing that piece on the BOSS 302 was a treat. There seem to be tons of gear heads on this site which I think is great.

-Ed
 

scott pagan

New Member
Scott:
What I am trying to do is find a place where I can go in and type in the dimensions. Transform lets me "see" how I have drug the word to a certain size but I need to be more accurate than that

your monitor output is at 75ppi so if you scale your image in photoshop view to match the output size, you'll be looking at the actual output resolution.
 
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