Fun Situation.

[psdesigns]

So we did a pretty big job last year printing for a local nonprofit. We did around $8400 in signs and banners.

Well this is for a yearly ice rink and they have sponsors each year so we did all the sponsor signs and decals.

Well we moved out of California to Texas this year but we do ship all over the United States, so I just received a text message from this nonprofit asking us to email all the design work we did for them for free last year.

So to keep this short and sweet we printed all the signage for them for his huge event but donated all our time and effort in designing and vectorizing all the logos that were given to us and trust me we are talking 30-40 logos that we personally vectorized and made sure they printed clean. We are talking 3ft x 6ft prints that went all around the ice rink.

So we kindly responded back after there Demand of a text message that per the invoicing they were only charged for the signs and not out time spend on making these signs the best they can be possible.

They then replied back this artwork is as much there’s as it is mine and that we need to hand it over, then went on to ask for my address so they can send me something lol.

So my question to the community has anyone else run into this problem? We are just a small business me my wife and kids. We donated a lot of our time in that community to make positive changes and help the community and now to have them come at us like that feels horrible.

All of our invoices they paid never reference design time so that was never paid for only donated by us but I don’t feel I need to share our hard work with them so they can take it and get it printed elsewhere. Who ever takes on the job for them great but they should have to put in the work just like we did to make everything look amazing.

Would love to hear your thoughts on this situation! We appreciate this community!

 

[rjssigns]

If it wasn't specified in the original contract I don't think there's much you can do.
For me If a job calls for logo design or cleaning up a low res logo it's stated that I own the work.

Only two places I don't do that and it's a church I've been working with for two decades and a local veterans organization.

If you want to be gamey you can send them the original low res crap they sent you and call it a day.

 

[psdesigns]

If it wasn't specified in the original contract I don't think there's much you can do.
For me If a job calls for logo design or cleaning up a low res logo it's stated that I own the work.

Only two places I don't do that and it's a church I've been working with for two decades and a local veterans organization.

If you want to be gamey you can send them the original low res crap they sent you and call it a day.

So my concern is they are trying to threaten me with legal action, hence asking for my address to send a certified demand letter to hand over the artwork. When no artwork was charged on any of the invoices just signs/materials. Is this something they can try to force a small business to hand over? I just don't need that kinda issue as a small business. Getting a lawyer etc.

I let them know if they want all the original artwork we designs we would be happy to provide it for them for a low cost of $35.00 per design/logo that we vectorized. But of course no response back so I don't know. I guess we will play it by ear and see if they try to take legal action over something they never paid for or not. If the invoices said Design Time was charged I can see them having a case but the design was never talked about we just make sure what ever we print is the best quality possible so we make sure all our things are vectored properly.

The gamey thing will most likely be the last resort for sure.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

You are not legally obligated to store or find their files unless your contracts state it. Send them a quote for a file location fee in whatever amount of time at your full shop rate you see fit.

 

[Boudica]

... no good deed goes unpunished.

 

[psdesigns]

... no good deed goes unpunished.

You can just do good things to do good things without someone expecting even more from you for free... What a headache.

Also if anyone has any suggestions on some verbiage I can possibly put on my website to or on my invoices that will detour this from happening again. I am all ears! Some type of Disclamer or something stating you do not own the work we do unless stated on the invoice or contract etc. Maybe someone can point me in the proper direct for something like that I would be greatful!

 

[ikarasu]

Even if they paid you to make the artwork, you're not obligated to send it to them a year later.

We usually hand our clients their files when they ask - even if we know they're leaving us for someone else. It doesn't cost us nothing.... Their files are of no use to us.. and if you be a dick to them about it, all you're doing is ensuring you'll never work with them again.

Your situation is a bit weird because you're out of state. If I were you... Id have offered to print the signs and ship it to them, while handing over your file. That's about the only way you're going to get money out of them.

Now you're wasting your time going back and fourth and stressing out over if they'll be sending you legal documents, and at the end of it all youre going to make nothing. Much easier to just hand the files over.


That being said... It's up to you. You don't have to legally supply them, you're under no moral obligation to. You don't need to worry about legal action, if they goto a lawyer to demand it... The lawyer would advise them there's nothing they can do.

 

[signbrad]

Your client has already received your design and vectorizing—in the form of the signs you provided. They now own the signs, complete with the designs on them. You are under no obligation to give away production files. Production files are, by default, property of the shop. They are tools that you created to accomplish the work. Would you also give them other tools? Printer cartridges, for example?

Vectorizing can be expensive. Design work surely is. Tools are rarely cheap.
If a car mechanic needs to buy a special tool to fix your car, do you own the tool? No. Even if he charged more to cover the cost of the tool, you still don't own it. Even if the tool is only good for fixing one specific problem on one particular motor, the tool is his (I'm thinking of the special Ford tool used to install the three timing chains, not belts, on the poorly-designed 4.0 liter V6 in my old Ranger).

What about the intellectual property embodied in a logo? Doesn't the logo owner own that? Of course, they do. You may spend all day to vectorize a file, but that does not give you ownership of the intellectual property. The logo owner still possesses that and always will. But—they already have that. How did you get the file in the first place, so that you could vectorize it? What further do you have that belongs to them? Give them back their original file. You were just borrowing it, anyway, right?

Something else you could do—delete the production files. Tell the client, honestly, that you no longer have them. They were taking up needed space, and you got rid of them when they moved away. You were, you know, housecleaning.


.........................

If my comment seems harsh, it is because it's been my experience that the value of donated time is never, ever appreciated. Ever.
Better to figure the value of the donated time and make a cash donation. If I can't "afford" to give a donation as cash, how can I afford to give it as time (which is money)?
As a creative, my time and expertise has value. If I view my time as of little value, should I be shocked when my client does the same thing? Are they not just following my lead?

Back in the days of sign painting, I only had one client who had the audacity to ask for "their" pounce patterns. Their argument? That the patterns belonged to them anyway because their logo was on them. And besides, they said, what use did I have for paper patterns of their logo? My answer was that I used them to start fires in the stove. You should have seen the look on their face. Of course, I apologized profusely.

Mike Stevens once wrote that successful sign companies try to educate the market. He said that the long-term success of the sign industry is dependent on an educated clientele.
Yet, now, more than ever, we have a sign marketplace filled with people who are woefully stupid about intellectual property, good design and many other things as well. Are we to blame for that, at least partially? Maybe I was part of the problem.
The sign business used to be a respected, well-paid, trade. But the design expertise and quality of the product has plummeted since I started in 1974. At the same time, wages are stagnating and inadequate, low-price wars are common, and the investment in equipment has sky-rocketed. A great time for me to retire completely. I am now at 25 hours working and 60 miles a week riding. But not for long.
I will shortly stop worrying about the sign business, such as it is. The shop will be in my bicycle's rearview mirror and my new job will be maintaining my health and spending time with the love of my life. Although she is not really a job—she's an adventure!

Brad in Kansas City

 

[Saturn]

... all the logos that were given to us ...

This is what I would send them back.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

You are under no obligation to give them shit. Tell them if they want to file a lawsuit, you will sue them for frivolous lawsuit. Tell them to go fuck themselves and you feel bad you donated your time to such idiots. And learn there their they're.

 

[GAC05]

Type up a list of all the sponsor's websites and let them know they can get the same high-quality artwork you started out with from them, free of charge.

 

[psdesigns]

You are under no obligation to give them ****. Tell them if they want to file a lawsuit, you will sue them for frivolous lawsuit. Tell them to go **** themselves and you feel bad you donated your time to such idiots. And learn there their they're.

Haha I hate grammar :/ that’s why I design.

 

[psdesigns]

Your client has already received your design and vectorizing—in the form of the signs you provided. They now own the signs, complete with the designs on them. You are under no obligation to give away production files. Production files are, by default, property of the shop. They are tools that you created to accomplish the work. Would you also give them other tools? Printer cartridges, for example?

Vectorizing can be expensive. Design work surely is. Tools are rarely cheap.
If a car mechanic needs to buy a special tool to fix your car, do you own the tool? No. Even if he charged more to cover the cost of the tool, you still don't own it. Even if the tool is only good for fixing one specific problem on one particular motor, the tool is his (I'm thinking of the special Ford tool used to install the three timing chains, not belts, on the poorly-designed 4.0 liter V6 in my old Ranger).

What about the intellectual property embodied in a logo? Doesn't the logo owner own that? Of course, they do. You may spend all day to vectorize a file, but that does not give you ownership of the intellectual property. The logo owner still possesses that and always will. But—they already have that. How did you get the file in the first place, so that you could vectorize it? What further do you have that belongs to them? Give them back their original file. You were just borrowing it, anyway, right?

Something else you could do—delete the production files. Tell the client, honestly, that you no longer have them. They were taking up needed space, and you got rid of them when they moved away. You were, you know, housecleaning.


.........................

If my comment seems harsh, it is because it's been my experience that the value of donated time is never, ever appreciated. Ever.
Better to figure the value of the donated time and make a cash donation. If I can't "afford" to give a donation as cash, how can I afford to give it as time (which is money)?
As a creative, my time and expertise has value. If I view my time as of little value, should I be shocked when my client does the same thing? Are they not just following my lead?

Back in the days of sign painting, I only had one client who had the audacity to ask for "their" pounce patterns. Their argument? That the patterns belonged to them anyway because their logo was on them. And besides, they said, what use did I have for paper patterns of their logo? My answer was that I used them to start fires in the stove. You should have seen the look on their face. Of course, I apologized profusely.

Mike Stevens once wrote that successful sign companies try to educate the market. He said that the long-term success of the sign industry is dependent on an educated clientele.
Yet, now, more than ever, we have a sign marketplace filled with people who are woefully stupid about intellectual property, good design and many other things as well. Are we to blame for that, at least partially? Maybe I was part of the problem.
The sign business used to be a respected, well-paid, trade. But the design expertise and quality of the product has plummeted since I started in 1974. At the same time, wages are stagnating and inadequate, low-price wars are common, and the investment in equipment has sky-rocketed. A great time for me to retire completely. I am now at 25 hours working and 60 miles a week riding. But not for long.
I will shortly stop worrying about the sign business, such as it is. The shop will be in my bicycle's rearview mirror and my new job will be maintaining my health and spending time with the love of my life. Although she is not really a job—she's an adventure!

Brad in Kansas City

Thank you very much for this you make a lot of great points.

 

[CanuckSigns]

It's tricky, legally you don't owe them anything, once the signs were delivered, you are under no obligation to even keep the files. However it's been my experience that clients believe they should be able to get copies of their artwork from you anytime they like at no charge, and if you tell them you need to charge them, you risk upsetting them.

I usually just send them the files, it's not worth the stress, I have enough on my plate without adding threatening emails and phone calls to it. They won't pay you for the files, they'll just rope some other sucker into fixing them for free.

If you really want to be vindictive, open the files in some obscure design program (Gerber omega, sign wizard etc) and save them in their native format, I may have done this to some extremely entitled ex clients.

 

[zspace]

When clients ask for their art we usually just send them the proof, which they previously received in an email anyway. High quality print files and vector files are production work and a completely different discussion.

 

[Gino]

There really are two sides to this.

Whether you charged the end-user or not, did you in writing tell them the artwork/files were yours and not theirs ?? If you indicated to them, you did them at no charge, I would also think they were the end-users. It was YOUR choice not to charge them. Had you charged, you already stated you could see giving them their files. Therefore, I believe you should give them the files in a good usable format. The rest of this is all emotional and not businesslike.

You're the one who basically crossed the line, by not explaining your business or your conditions. They'll win if it goes to court...... and besides, you said you're a little company and can't afford lawyers or the time, so cut your losses and hand them over and really make it a good deed on your part. Holding these files hostage, just proves, you weren't being a nice guy.

 

[garyroy]

Ah...the old "I want my artwork files" dilemma.
What to do, what to do, this is what makes this forum truly great, lots of interesting opinions on this.

Think this out for a second. You said you "donated all our time and effort in designing and vectorizing all the logos" to be nice right, kinda.
If someone donated $100 to the non profit, would they want to keep their $100? No, a donation is a thing you let go of when you donate it.
So, you say you donated the artwork but now you want to keep it. Was it really a donation?
You may actually have done the artwork hoping that the following year they used you again.

Now on the other hand, I get you bro, about all the effort and time that goes into redoing really lousy artwork for customers.
When we're done with it it's like giving brith to a beautiful thing, we fall in love with our end product (emotion).
Hey what would life be like without emotion. Not so hot. So, I fully know the feeling of wanting to keep the little artwork children I made.
In many ways the end user is NOT entitled to it. You are giving them back a file they did not give you. But if you donated it, as you said, they are entitled to it.

I say give it to them, then write forever after on every quote you give...
"We can vectorize and clean up your artwork for $200 (?) and give you a 1 time copy, or we can clean it up for free and the cleaned files remains on our computer unless
they are purchased".
That's really bad wording but you get what I mean. Lesson learned, you're a much smarter business person now, that's for sure.
BTW, there are other threads on this subject on this forum, they are a lot of fun to read.

Enjoy the Texas sunshine! I'll be in Dallas in a few weeks visiting relatives.

 

[Boudica]

I don't think the slimy person at this organization has a leg to stand on.
The op should just ghost them.

 

[bob]

It doesn't matter whether you charged for the work or gave it to them. By the Berne convention the person who creates the artwork owns all of the rights to the artwork. It's yours not theirs. This is the case unless you specifically ceded those rights to them. It's entirely your choice whether to give them the artwork or not. This is not theoretical, I've been to court over something similar and prevailed based on the Berne convention.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

It's not really donating if you got paid? We all eat parts of jobs, some of us all of the time, others hardly ever. Vectorizing another person's logo does not make it yours. You can't copy an authors book and claim that it's yours because you went and typed it all out yourself.
Your half way across the country now and it's some stupid charity, just give it to them.