Fun Situation.

[CanuckSigns]

Ah...the old "I want my artwork files" dilemma.
What to do, what to do, this is what makes this forum truly great, lots of interesting opinions on this.

Think this out for a second. You said you "donated all our time and effort in designing and vectorizing all the logos" to be nice right, kinda.
If someone donated $100 to the non profit, would they want to keep their $100? No, a donation is a thing you let go of when you donate it.
So, you say you donated the artwork but now you want to keep it. Was it really a donation?
You may actually have done the artwork hoping that the following year they used you again.

Now on the other hand, I get you bro, about all the effort and time that goes into redoing really lousy artwork for customers.
When we're done with it it's like giving brith to a beautiful thing, we fall in love with our end product (emotion).
Hey what would life be like without emotion. Not so hot. So, I fully know the feeling of wanting to keep the little artwork children I made.
In many ways the end user is NOT entitled to it. You are giving them back a file they did not give you. But if you donated it, as you said, they are entitled to it.

I say give it to them, then write forever after on every quote you give...
"We can vectorize and clean up your artwork for $200 (?) and give you a 1 time copy, or we can clean it up for free and the cleaned files remains on our computer unless
they are purchased".
That's really bad wording but you get what I mean. Lesson learned, you're a much smarter business person now, that's for sure.
BTW, there are other threads on this subject on this forum, they are a lot of fun to read.

Enjoy the Texas sunshine! I'll be in Dallas in a few weeks visiting relatives.

Lol, I've never felt like I gave birth after vectorizing an existing logo for Joe's Barbershop that's for sure.

 

[Boudica]

It's not really donating if you got paid? We all eat parts of jobs, some of us all of the time, others hardly ever. Vectorizing another person's logo does not make it yours. You can't copy an authors book and claim that it's yours because you went and typed it all out yourself.
Your half way across the country now and it's some stupid charity, just give it to them.

There's some value in recreating the logos, and unless you pay for the time and expertise, all you have a right to is the crappy version provided in the first place. Sure, the op could be nice and send them the recreated logo's, but he's not obligated to. I don't think the op should give them a damn thing - just because they cried lawsuit.
There should be consquenses for being slimy and unscrupulous.

 

[Bobby H]

I think I would be inclined to go "whoops" and accidentally delete the files related to that project. Sign companies are not obligated to keep any source files or production files related to a particular project after it is completed.

As others have stated, the client has no right to the production files that were generated to complete that big project. Not unless they specifically pay for them. The dopey JPEG images they provided to vectorize (for free) do not have all encompassing ownership of any new production files sourced from them. The only way a sign shop is going to run afoul of any laws is if they try using those logos as merchandizing assets (like printing the cleaned up logos on t-shirts or other swag to sell for profit).

If a client thought he had rights to the production materials related to a sign project what would stop him from just wanting the logo files? Next thing, he'd be demanding free copies of the fonts used and maybe serial numbers or login details of the software used in the design process.

 

[DL Signs]

We use a standard disclaimer on every proof and contract we provide that all artwork is our property unless otherwise noted, and that they agree to pay a base fee of $1,000 for any unauthorized use of our artwork. Basically if they want our design files, they need to pay for them, or have it stipulated that they get them. If we provide a proof, and they take even just our concept to another shop who says they'll do it cheaper, they could still have to pay us anyway if we choose to pursue it. Our time has value. The company has had this policy in place for decades, hasn't had to fight or defend it yet, and judging from the month backlog I have, it doesn't hurt our business in the least. Always state your policies up front, in writing. We occasionally give them to customers who request them, but not very often. Kind of like how a cop can write a ticket or give a warning if you have the right attitude, or doughnuts.

Something you could do in this case is a trade, artwork for a piece of paper in the form of either an "in-kind donation form", or receipt from the charity listing the full value of your time as a donation so you can write it off on taxes. They get the artwork, you get to write the entire time you spent on it at your shop rate off as a charitable donation. Win-win for all.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

We learned about being humble today in church. I bet if the client was humble the OP would of handed them over with a smile. Instead, they are threatening to hang OP on a cross

 

[ikarasu]

Lets put it another way...

What does not giving them the files accomplish? It's obvious at this point they're not going to pay for them. So the only reason not to give it to them is spite / principle. Is it worth it?

Now this is all public knowledge. Whenever someone googles your company, which you use as your screen name... guess what page is going to come up... and all your future clients will read this thread, then likely move onto the next sign guy down the street who isn't badmouthing his clients and refusing to send their artwork to them. Clients like companies that are reliable and work with them... Not ones who hold files hostage to make $1-200

The Client sounds like a Dick, and I'd probably want to stick it to him too if he started threatening legal action. But in the end, you're not going to accomplish anything by not sending the file out aside from pissing him off... So you just have to ask yourself if thats your end goal here.

 

[Terry01]

Hard drives are strange things for just giving up the ghost at the most inopertune moment. They just don't make them like they used to.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

We learned about being humble today in church. I bet if the client was humble the OP would of handed them over with a smile. Instead, they are threatening to hang OP on a cross

Maybe if the OP was humble to begin with then they would not have been threatened? Call your work charity but still charge for it? Fake outrage is annoying, they obviously wanted the job, paid for job, bid it to get it and the price included art. Now that the customer asked for files since they moved across the country, they want to play victim. Same dance, different song.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

they agree to pay a base fee of $1,000 for any unauthorized use of our artwork.

Good luck with that.

 

[DL Signs]

Good luck with that.

Yeah, we know.... But when people sign stuff, and there's dollars attached, I'm sure the question of would we/ could we sticks in some of their minds. We haven't had to actually try to go after anyone for it, don't know for sure if we ever would. Is it effective? Do we just have honest customers? Dumb luck? Who knows. I think I'd rather have it there though, it's kind of like putting locks on a door, they just help keep honest people honest

 

[ikarasu]

Do you guys do low res proofs?

If our source file is a vector... So is our proofs. We re-size it for a 8.5 x 11 proof page... But anyone could just open our proof in Illustrator and grab the graphics out of it. No password protections, nothing.

We do have a 50% Deposit on new non established customers - That way if they take our designs and run to another shop, we're still paid for our time. But if they like our design... why would they go elsewhere unless we dropped the ball on something else?

Usually we tell the customer when they ask that their artwork is in the proof when they ask for it. If they ask for print ready files...we usually spend the 2 mins to grab them off our server and E-mail them out. We've had far more clients come back to us when they tried to switch companies than not - They understand while we're not the cheapest, you're paying for service...and quality. I've seen so many yellow Sutton signs because the new shop that bought a $1000 printer off craigslist doesn't know how to print colors properly. Be a dick and you're guaranteeing they wont ever come back to you - be nice and let your service / reputation speak for itself, and you may win them back.

Again...zero upside to not giving them artwork, and plenty of "what ifs" that may pan out if you do.

 

[Bobby H]

What does not giving them the files accomplish? It's obvious at this point they're not going to pay for them. So the only reason not to give it to them is spite / principle. Is it worth it?

Yes. It's worth it. Because there is no shortage of fake-clients who abuse the services of legit sign companies, trying to get something for nothing before shopping our bid(s) to less-legit rival sign shops. They'll have us do all sorts of leg work: visit their location, measure/survey the store front, figure out what kinds of sign(s) they need, figure out what the sign code allows in that location then create multiple design options and bids. Then the fake-clients try shopping all that leg-work elsewhere. It's important to point out they almost never have rival sign shops developing competing bids the same time as us. They let us do our more expert work first and then try getting the same thing for less from someone else.

The last thing I'm going to do is give a non-client any production ready files he can hand off to a rival sign company. Screw that.

I've also been in this business long enough to see a would-be client basically faking a sign inquiry just to try to get free graphic design services -like getting a poor quality JPEG "logo" cleaned-up into a more professional, vector-based thing. We'll convert logos for people. We're just not going to do that for free.

Do you guys do low res proofs?

Our shop plays it by ear depending on the customer. If it's a repeat customer who has a good relationship with us we'll have no problem giving them unprotected PDFs of shop drawings or vector-based versions of their assets that we've re-created.

IF the would-be client is someone we suspect is shopping around for the lowest price we might just give him a bid without drawing up anything at all. Or if we do create any sketches we'll convert any vector-based elements in the drawing into pixel-based objects that way there is nothing for a rival sign company to harvest out of a PDF.

 

[ikarasu]

Yes. It's worth it. Because there is no shortage of fake-clients who abuse the services of legit sign companies, trying to get something for nothing before shopping our bid(s) to less-legit rival sign shops. They'll have us do all sorts of leg work: visit their location, measure/survey the store front, figure out what kinds of sign(s) they need, figure out what the sign code allows in that location then create multiple design options and bids. Then the fake-clients try shopping all that leg-work elsewhere. It's important to point out they almost never have rival sign shops developing competing bids the same time as us. They let us do our more expert work first and then try getting the same thing for less from someone else.

The last thing I'm going to do is give a non-client any production ready files he can hand off to a rival sign company. Screw that.

I've also been in this business long enough to see a would-be client basically faking a sign inquiry just to try to get free graphic design services -like getting a poor quality JPEG "logo" cleaned-up into a more professional, vector-based thing. We'll convert logos for people. We're just not going to do that for free.

If some guy asked us to design some signs for him, then asked for the artwork and didn't want any signs, I'd see your point.

But OP made signs for this guy a year ago - The guys a non profit... OP's thought process is he could always ship the signs back to the guy... But lets be realistic, would buying and shipping signs from someone far away ever be cheaper than buying local? non profits are usually last minute signs as well... would they get there in time? To me, it sounds like the client was more than happy with the signs... but the sign company moved away, so he's just asking for the files so he can get the signs produced locally... That doesnt scream like abuse to me. It sucks that OP Moved away, but its unrealistic to expect the non profit to keep buying signs off him when he's far away.


We do A LOT of non profit signs - They suck...Re-creating logos, changes to sponsors / vendors at the last second. I get a lot of time probably went into the artwork... but at the same time... again, lots of changes and last minute signs...will OP be able to handle that being far away without having to charge overnight shipping and making a couple coro signs go from $50 to $500? Not the OP's problem... but if he cared enough to donate to the cause in the first place... he should care enough to help them out this time

 

[Boudica]

If some guy asked us to design some signs for him, then asked for the artwork and didn't want any signs, I'd see your point.

But OP made signs for this guy a year ago - The guys a non profit... OP's thought process is he could always ship the signs back to the guy... But lets be realistic, would buying and shipping signs from someone far away ever be cheaper than buying local? non profits are usually last minute signs as well... would they get there in time? To me, it sounds like the client was more than happy with the signs... but the sign company moved away, so he's just asking for the files so he can get the signs produced locally... That doesnt scream like abuse to me. It sucks that OP Moved away, but its unrealistic to expect the non profit to keep buying signs off him when he's far away.


We do A LOT of non profit signs - They suck...Re-creating logos, changes to sponsors / vendors at the last second. I get a lot of time probably went into the artwork... but at the same time... again, lots of changes and last minute signs...will OP be able to handle that being far away without having to charge overnight shipping and making a couple coro signs go from $50 to $500? Not the OP's problem... but if he cared enough to donate to the cause in the first place... he should care enough to help them out this time

Nope. He doesn't owe them anything. They were rude and ungrateful about the donated part. The op's former client can use their "fundraising charm" on someone else this year. closer. The said donation was to enhance the project last year. It sucks for them that such a generous printer helped them last year, and moved away, but getting litigious is a red flag for me that their charity might not be on the up and up. So ignore their demands.

 

[GAC05]

It's not really donating if you got paid? We all eat parts of jobs, some of us all of the time, others hardly ever. Vectorizing another person's logo does not make it yours. You can't copy an authors book and claim that it's yours because you went and typed it all out yourself.
Your half way across the country now and it's some stupid charity, just give it to them.

There's no drama in this solution. Where would that leave us, reduced to talking about naked catnappers?

 

[ikarasu]

Nope. He doesn't owe them anything. They were rude and ungrateful about the donated part. The op's former client can use their "fundraising charm" on someone else this year. closer. The said donation was to enhance the project last year. It sucks for them that such a generous printer helped them last year, and moved away, but getting litigious is a red flag for me that their charity might not be on the up and up. So ignore their demands.

There's always 2 sides to every story, don't forget!

Non proffit, "donation", etc keeps getting thrown around... But he made $8400 off of them. The donation was his time in artwork.

We never give anything away for free... But if someone is buying $8400 worth of signs off us, usually artwork is included in the price.


Then it mentions 30-40 logos got turned into vector or made sure they printed clean. 30-40 logos is what ... 5-10 hours of time max, if you're going slow... I'm sure 90% of them were auto trace and it was more like a 2-5 hour job.


Op may consider his time vectorizing as a donation... But the client that dropped almost 9k on signage who doesn't even understand what a vector is, just wants his files so he can likely change it from 2021 to 2022... Because the guy lives in Texas, and a non profit buying something from out of state is more complicated than buying in state (tax exemptions, etc)

Not ops problem, but I don't think it's unrealistic for the client to want to buy local.... And if op was local, they'd probably still have the sale.... So why be a dick about it.


Nowhere does it say the client is threatening legal action. Just that he asked for the guys address to send him something.... For all we know it was a swag bag for being nice and sending the artwork! And now op is worried it's legal papers.... Which I highly doubt the client was even threatening with.


You owe the client nothing legally. But word of mouth is key, it's why so many shops fail.... The customer is always right is a popular saying for a reason, not because they're always right... But because of the hell they cause when you treat them like they're not.

It'd be a lot different ifnop donated 100 signs. But op "donated" a few hours of work on a $9000 banner / likely coro job. I think he's made enough profit to cover the few hours of art time he put into it!

 

[ikarasu]

Another example.

Some guy bought a SWB Set and frame off of me - It was $210, my cost is like $50 in material and the frame. He sent me a .docX wordpad file with the artwork his wife made.... It opened up completely screwed, and it wasnt the right layout he wanted. We went back and fourth like 5 times, even though artwork isnt included in the price... and I set it up as a PDF and got it to where he wanted it.

5 days later he asked me for the file so his wife can make some edits... I felt like that was bullshit since it was completely different setup than the way his wife did it... but I exported it to PDF / AI as well as to .doc, just for his wife and sent it over. I did so knowing he's likely going somewhere else to get the inserts made... I charge a lot for them because I hate dealing with people Well... not 2 weeks later, He asks for another whole set... ontop of has me do artwork / mockups for 3 food trucks for which I'm scheduled to do the graphics for this week, and about to make close to 10K off of.

I could have told him to pound sand, but... why? If he wants to go elsewhere, thats his choice. He paid for a sign which I have a markup and overhead in - Part of my overhead is "The clients going to be an idiot and need me to spend 20 mins holding his hand making changes" Which covered the art work time. So sure, my file - but had I been a dick and told him it'd be $50 or 75 or whatever for the artwork, I probably would have never heard from him again... And what did I gain from that situation? nothing but a pissed off customer who wont ever recommend me to anyone.

If some guy asks you for some designs and you dont charge upfront for them, then he asks you to email him the designs... I can see being told to go away or pay for them. But if you make 9K off the guy... unless you severely undercharged for your services... "donated time" or not, there is no upside in not spending 5 mins to send over the files.


You can be the cheapest sign shop that works out of their garage and people goto you because your cheap, or you can be one of the highest and people goto you because of your customer service / attitude. I prefer the second option! The onlytime I don't help a client out, is if they're a massive dick and dont deserve help. I think thats only happened once in the 10 years I've been doing signage... We dont advertise, we dont go out looking for new business (Most of the time), 99% of our customers are referral's or repeat customers. So unless it costs us an arm and a leg... we try to help out the customer, even if we know theyre going elsewhere... At the very least, it keeps the door open for them coming back... which has happened more than I can remember.

 

[psdesigns]

There really are two sides to this.

Whether you charged the end-user or not, did you in writing tell them the artwork/files were yours and not theirs ?? If you indicated to them, you did them at no charge, I would also think they were the end-users. It was YOUR choice not to charge them. Had you charged, you already stated you could see giving them their files. Therefore, I believe you should give them the files in a good usable format. The rest of this is all emotional and not businesslike.

You're the one who basically crossed the line, by not explaining your business or your conditions. They'll win if it goes to court...... and besides, you said you're a little company and can't afford lawyers or the time, so cut your losses and hand them over and really make it a good deed on your part. Holding these files hostage, just proves, you weren't being a nice guy.

Your right, I will give them the original files just like I got them from them Not the cleaned-up production files because that was not part of the invoice. Just print it and slap it on a sign is all they paid for. I just made them look nice. They don't need to know that process.

 

[psdesigns]

Ah...the old "I want my artwork files" dilemma.
What to do, what to do, this is what makes this forum truly great, lots of interesting opinions on this.

Think this out for a second. You said you "donated all our time and effort in designing and vectorizing all the logos" to be nice right, kinda.
If someone donated $100 to the non profit, would they want to keep their $100? No, a donation is a thing you let go of when you donate it.
So, you say you donated the artwork but now you want to keep it. Was it really a donation?
You may actually have done the artwork hoping that the following year they used you again.

Now on the other hand, I get you bro, about all the effort and time that goes into redoing really lousy artwork for customers.
When we're done with it it's like giving brith to a beautiful thing, we fall in love with our end product (emotion).
Hey what would life be like without emotion. Not so hot. So, I fully know the feeling of wanting to keep the little artwork children I made.
In many ways the end user is NOT entitled to it. You are giving them back a file they did not give you. But if you donated it, as you said, they are entitled to it.

I say give it to them, then write forever after on every quote you give...
"We can vectorize and clean up your artwork for $200 (?) and give you a 1 time copy, or we can clean it up for free and the cleaned files remains on our computer unless
they are purchased".
That's really bad wording but you get what I mean. Lesson learned, you're a much smarter business person now, that's for sure.
BTW, there are other threads on this subject on this forum, they are a lot of fun to read.

Enjoy the Texas sunshine! I'll be in Dallas in a few weeks visiting relatives.

I said I donated my time, not the artwork. They are demanding the artwork I donated my time to make the artwork come out nice. I could have just printed what they sent me right? Then it would have looked like my business does a crappy job printing if it came out all pixelated? We don't do work like that, I would never print something as is without letting my customers know it needs to be fixed or it won't come out clean. I was doing a favor for them as it was there the first year doing the event and I enjoy helping people and my community. But to come at me sideways the next year demanding all the work that was done last year just does not fly well with me.

 

[psdesigns]

It's not really donating if you got paid? We all eat parts of jobs, some of us all of the time, others hardly ever. Vectorizing another person's logo does not make it yours. You can't copy an authors book and claim that it's yours because you went and typed it all out yourself.
Your half way across the country now and it's some stupid charity, just give it to them.

They didn't pay for vectorizing lol, they Paid for the Signs that they got. I charge for vectorizing and if they paid for that service I would have no issues handing over the artwork.