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Question gas-out solvent inks
- Thread starter B13 Signs
- Start date
Gino
Premium Subscriber
If you need to laminate that fast, then evidently, you are not planning your work load very well. The rule of thumb is 24 to 48 hours at least. Some people do it within an hour or two. Immediately sounds a little too quick in my opinion. Why not try it and see if it works ?? Let us know if the customer comes back with any complaints.
Solventinkjet
DIY Printer Fixing Guide
It's another one of those sign industry things. Half the guys have never waited to laminate and say it's fine. The other half either does it because, "it's the way you are supposed to do it" or they had one print fail 5 years ago and never chanced it again. In my experience out gassing doesn't seem to actually matter but for every one of me there is someone who will tell you different.
signman315
Signmaker
The type of ink you are using matters....latest Epsons they advertise you can lam in 6 hours and not void warranty...otherwise it's 24 hours to maintain valid warranty (among other hoops to jump through)...eco-sol in general can laminate more quickly than true solvent. The brand/ink type makes a difference. I use a Roland Eco-sol and wait a minimum of 4 hours, 24 hours preferred. At my previous job I had an installer ruin a 4' x 6' logo on 3m 180 w/ 8519 lam for the side of a box truck. It was dark green and black (heavy ink load) and my supervisor at the time reprinted it and laminated it straight off the printer. The vinyl was liquid, the adhesive much more aggressive, but we got it on there and it never went bad, that was 5-6 years ago. Nowadays that I don't have a supervisor making bad decisions for me, we aren't doing that anymore, but other than voiding warranty on some brands, and making install more difficult the vinyl does not fade or peel any faster than an outgassed print. Understanding that I only tested on a true solvent mimaki with 3m 180/8519, certainly other recipes will bake differently.
equippaint
Active Member
You will suffer a similar fate
(ignore the politics it was the best I could find)
(ignore the politics it was the best I could find)
I think a few variables need to be factored into every scenario. What type of media, color load, print-cut on a dark background with a bleed, etc.....
As a general rule of thumb on our Roland running OEM Eco-Sol inks, we wait at least overnight. That's not to say we haven't gotten away with shorter spans of drying time, but we also haven't had many failures doing it the way we do it, so why mess with a good thing?
As a general rule of thumb on our Roland running OEM Eco-Sol inks, we wait at least overnight. That's not to say we haven't gotten away with shorter spans of drying time, but we also haven't had many failures doing it the way we do it, so why mess with a good thing?
CanuckSigns
Active Member
My understanding and 13 years of experience have taught me that the only issue is it causes the adhesive to be more aggressive and gummy, which only really matters for wraps and such where you might need to reposition the print. If it's a print being stuck to a sheet of something, I've never had an issue with laminating straight off the printer.
In regards to a previous poster saying it will void your warranty, don't worry, if 3M or oracal etc, don't void your warranty for that, they will find something else to use as an excuse, perhaps your install bay faces the wrong direction, or you ate the wrong type of bagel for breakfast.
In regards to a previous poster saying it will void your warranty, don't worry, if 3M or oracal etc, don't void your warranty for that, they will find something else to use as an excuse, perhaps your install bay faces the wrong direction, or you ate the wrong type of bagel for breakfast.
It causes the vinyl to be gummy - Thats the main, irrefutable one that everyone who installs will notice. Why does the vinyl become gummy? Because a solvent is a certain percent of alcohol, alcohol that needs to evaporate. When you overlam it right away... where does that solvent go? It usually stays and goes out the back, where the glue is. And as you know... glue doesn't like alcohol.
Will it cause a problem? 9/10 times, no. We used to laminate right away quite a bit - We had a few failures... Not one or two, but a few. Ones where we had to waste a lot of time to go, inspect the sign.. see it wasn't anything the customer did, remove the sign.. reproduce it, and put it back up. So when we had a solvent, we waited 8-12 hours before laminating... Unless it was a rush job, then we waited as long as possible and stopped.
What could happen from laminating right away?
The glue becomes gummy... which makes installing harder, which makes it prone to more installer mistakers / redos.
The solvent goes somewhere... Either it goes up and the overlaminate bubbles, or it goes back to the glue and increases the chance of glue failing.
Your warranty is void - Does it matter? How often do you submit warranty when it comes to material? 3M at least will take the material back and run tests on it... and I'm sure they can tell if it was properly offgassed. But as I said... how often do you do warranties? doesn't really matter.
What will happen from laminating right away? 99/100 times... nothing. But that 1 time could be a $10,000 job that you just threw down the drain. Rule of thumb is if you can wait, then wait... If it's a complete rush job, it's a small risk. If you find yourself in a situation where you can't wait more often than not... Invest in a printer that doesn't need offgassing, such as Latex or UV, depending on your application. Or go with one that requires very little offgassing like the new Epson.
In a pinch you can use a heatgun and heat it up... it'll help disolve all the solvents. Not useful for a big job... but hopefully you're not rushing big jobs!
Will it cause a problem? 9/10 times, no. We used to laminate right away quite a bit - We had a few failures... Not one or two, but a few. Ones where we had to waste a lot of time to go, inspect the sign.. see it wasn't anything the customer did, remove the sign.. reproduce it, and put it back up. So when we had a solvent, we waited 8-12 hours before laminating... Unless it was a rush job, then we waited as long as possible and stopped.
What could happen from laminating right away?
The glue becomes gummy... which makes installing harder, which makes it prone to more installer mistakers / redos.
The solvent goes somewhere... Either it goes up and the overlaminate bubbles, or it goes back to the glue and increases the chance of glue failing.
Your warranty is void - Does it matter? How often do you submit warranty when it comes to material? 3M at least will take the material back and run tests on it... and I'm sure they can tell if it was properly offgassed. But as I said... how often do you do warranties? doesn't really matter.
What will happen from laminating right away? 99/100 times... nothing. But that 1 time could be a $10,000 job that you just threw down the drain. Rule of thumb is if you can wait, then wait... If it's a complete rush job, it's a small risk. If you find yourself in a situation where you can't wait more often than not... Invest in a printer that doesn't need offgassing, such as Latex or UV, depending on your application. Or go with one that requires very little offgassing like the new Epson.
In a pinch you can use a heatgun and heat it up... it'll help disolve all the solvents. Not useful for a big job... but hopefully you're not rushing big jobs!
Thank you Everyone! you have all been very helpful and from now on I think I will off-gas my prints if not 24 hour at least longer than I have. I have had a few failures and thought it may be the install conditions (ie. dirty garages, trucks, outside conditions). but now I think it could have been that adhesive failing and completely my fault.
Oops!! well hopefully problem solved.
Thank you,
Oops!! well hopefully problem solved.
Thank you,
...... very nice follow up. It certainly would be nice if more people had your approach.
Something no one has mentioned yet... We installed temporary graphics on elevator doors years ago and didnt let them outgas. The ink ended up gassing out of the back and ghosting the image onto the metal elevator door. We managed to clean it off but not after the hotel director had a heart attack over it. So temp vs permanent would be another factor.
We've seen that phenomenon as well.