Gassing out Eco solv printed media.

[ikarasu]

Offgassing is a term used in lots of areas... Some just call it differently.

Sherwin Williams uses offgassing - while most other paint shops call it "cured". You can do a second coat of paint in a 8-24 hours when the paint is dry to the touch... But every can of paint says you can't wash the wall for weeks and it won't "cure / harden" for weeks.... Because the chemicals need to evaporate - same thing as offgassing, just a different name.

https://epson.com.jm/surecolor-s-series-solvent-printers#:~:text=Lamination Turnaround: Advantage Epson&text=Results based on Epson and,ink density and other factors. - Epson lists it at 6 hours offgass time.

I don't always believe what manufacturers say, but what possible reason would Epson or Avery or 3m have by saying you should wait xx hours to offgas? It's not like they secretly own stock in UV or latex printers....

Again.... These guys spend millions of dollars on RND. The printer manufacturer as well as the vinyl manufacturer has recommended offgas times for certain technologies.... If offgassing was fake, it's the equivalent of you installing a sign, putting a bag over it and telling your customer while your competitors signs can be viewed right away, they can't look at it for 6 hours or it'll void the warranty .... What'd be the point?

Yes, 9/10 times you're fine laminating after an hour or so. But to just write off offgassing as some conspiracy every single solvent printer manufacturer fabricated is lunacy.

It's like the idiots who go 100,000 miles without an oil change and cry when their engine seized saying that oil changes are a scam because they can't see the effect one has.

Just because you can't physically see the media offgassing doesn't mean it's not happening, or doesn't need to....


Trust the printer manufacturers and vinyl manufacturers... Not some guys on a forum...


If you have to rush and laminate right away, go ahead. But your better off, and less risk of a failure if you follow the specifications of your printer.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

Offgassing is a term used in lots of areas... Some just call it differently.

Sherwin Williams uses offgassing - while most other paint shops call it "cured". You can do a second coat of paint in a 8-24 hours when the paint is dry to the touch... But every can of paint says you can't wash the wall for weeks and it won't "cure / harden" for weeks.... Because the chemicals need to evaporate - same thing as offgassing, just a different name.

https://epson.com.jm/surecolor-s-series-solvent-printers#:~:text=Lamination Turnaround: Advantage Epson&text=Results based on Epson and,ink density and other factors. - Epson lists it at 6 hours offgass time.

I don't always believe what manufacturers say, but what possible reason would Epson or Avery or 3m have by saying you should wait xx hours to offgas? It's not like they secretly own stock in UV or latex printers....

Again.... These guys spend millions of dollars on RND. The printer manufacturer as well as the vinyl manufacturer has recommended offgas times for certain technologies.... If offgassing was fake, it's the equivalent of you installing a sign, putting a bag over it and telling your customer while your competitors signs can be viewed right away, they can't look at it for 6 hours or it'll void the warranty .... What'd be the point?

Yes, 9/10 times you're fine laminating after an hour or so. But to just write off offgassing as some conspiracy every single solvent printer manufacturer fabricated is lunacy.

It's like the idiots who go 100,000 miles without an oil change and cry when their engine seized saying that oil changes are a scam because they can't see the effect one has.

Just because you can't physically see the media offgassing doesn't mean it's not happening, or doesn't need to....


Trust the printer manufacturers and vinyl manufacturers... Not some guys on a forum...


If you have to rush and laminate right away, go ahead. But your better off, and less risk of a failure if you follow the specifications of your printer.

You're talking latex water based paint. Not apples to apples. We sprayed paint today that had a 30sec -5 min recoat window And a 60 min pot life. Use some sewer epoxy for the city that has a 5 min pot life. Still doesn't matter, solvents are gone in no time, they're basically flow additives to carry the pigment.

 

[ikarasu]

All kinds of paint - oil based actually takes longer to dry.

How Long Does Paint Take to Dry & Cure

When you complete a paint project, you may be asking yourself: how long does paint take to dry? Often times, the hardest part of any makeover is waiting for the paint to dry.

www.glidden.com

We do in house metal fab, when we dip our products in paint you have to wait 24 hours before doing a second dip... If you don't the first layer offgasses and causes a lot of bubbling. We use a fast dry enamel paint - https://industrial.sherwin-williams...-fast-dry-metal-finishing-enamel.9170954.html

We have a guy who dips 8 hours a day, everyday - tried diff paints by all the major brands... Every single brand will bubble if you re-dip the same day, even though it's dry to the touch in under an hour.

We also have a Mathews paint spray booth... And it's the same thing. If you.spray more than 2 coat before their recommended offgas time... A term they again use, it causes bubbles.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.matthewspaint.com/getmedia/5af18152-9e32-442a-b2d5-fad5b9e28825/mpc-troubleshooting-guide.pdf.aspx&ved=2ahUKEwjtqsGnsbn7AhWMJzQIHaG6BPkQFnoECDIQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0Rn_2O-WkeOLJWUVZcJEFN

Weve also been screenprinting for 30+ years.... And screen printing ink is similar. If you paint plywood white you can't just screen it the next day or the print will start to bubble from offgassing, some paints like enamels are the same... It takes 3 days for enamel ink to cure enough before you can do a second color or it'll bubble badly (there are ways around it like a heatgun... And it depends on if it's full coverage / etc). On e we started waiting a few days after painting plywood we've never had a bubble issue again - and the only time we ever have one is when we're in a rush and screen the next day. It doesn't happen everytime... But waiting has eliminated it completely.


We deal with a lot of different paints and solvents in many different applications. Heck... We've even had police vehicles get repainted and decaled right away and the vinyl bubbled because the automotive paint didn't fully cure. It only happens to us on ij680 - we removed the full side wrap, rewrapped the whole repair side... And only the door that got sideswiped and replaced and painted 2 days before we got it in to decal it was very pimply - the other door and fenders didn't bubble at all.... Again, all printed at the same time. It happened on multiple vehicles until we figured out the reason was the repaint. It didn't happen everytime, maybe 1 in 5 vehcles.thstbwas repaired... but once we figured out the common denominator and waited at least 10 days for the wrapping, the problem completely went away We were told by the automotive painter that it takes 30ish days for automotive paint to finish offgassing.... We never wait 30 days, but we won't re-decal a vehicle with reflective vinyl if it's been painted within 2 weeks. Regular vinyl seems to be ok.


There's just so many resources out there that talks about offgassing and the need for waiting... Whether it's from vinyl manufacturers, printer manufacturers, paint suppliers....

Everytime it's brought up there's always a few people who say ignore what the manufacturer of your new $20,000 printer says and just laminate right away.... And I don't get why.

Again... Why would they pigeon hold themselves and recommend something that puts them at a disadvantage if it wasn't needed? No one can seem to answer that question when they say offgassing is made up.

If you don't offgass and it doesn't affect your prints or installs, that's great. But on a "Professional" sign forum, people should be given the best practice advice on how to do things properly. Otherwise it's no better than the hacks who do wraps / vehicle graphics using cheap calandered crap with no overlam because they've never had issues with it, and it looks nice and pretty the day it's applied.... but they don't see it 6 months later when it's falling apart, or the guy who runs an extension cord to backlit signs instead of properly installing electrical because it "works".

There's shortcuts to every job. Offgassing isn't as extreme as above, and everyone rushes a job or two. But I can bet if you laminate every job after it comes off the printer instead of offgassing, you have some.customers who got sub-par signs / vinyl that started to left or bubble, or failed early. I imagine most shops are like ours.... 90% of the work we do is put the door and we don't see it again, so it's hard to tell if someonething failed and you just don't know about it.

 

[unmateria]

Absoluty agree with all points. Telling everybody you are good not curing because most times you dont have problems is like replacing your car oil every 50000km because usually happens nothing... Until it happens...

Of course is important curing, specially if you are going to use varnishes or any "live" chemical, and if you dont do that, you are just playing a russian roulette with your work

 

[netsol]

You're talking latex water based paint. Not apples to apples. We sprayed paint today that had a 30sec -5 min recoat window And a 60 min pot life. Use some sewer epoxy for the city that has a 5 min pot life. Still doesn't matter, solvents are gone in no time, they're basically flow additives to carry the pigment.

look at maaco & other franchise companies that have an "oven" to speed curing, reducing time to a few hours.
in spite of this, you are told to not wadh the car for several weeks

A LARGE PORTION of solvents are gone in minutes

 

[Goatshaver]

Offgassing is a term used in lots of areas... Some just call it differently.

Sherwin Williams uses offgassing - while most other paint shops call it "cured". You can do a second coat of paint in a 8-24 hours when the paint is dry to the touch... But every can of paint says you can't wash the wall for weeks and it won't "cure / harden" for weeks.... Because the chemicals need to evaporate - same thing as offgassing, just a different name.

https://epson.com.jm/surecolor-s-series-solvent-printers#:~:text=Lamination Turnaround: Advantage Epson&text=Results based on Epson and,ink density and other factors. - Epson lists it at 6 hours offgass time.

I don't always believe what manufacturers say, but what possible reason would Epson or Avery or 3m have by saying you should wait xx hours to offgas? It's not like they secretly own stock in UV or latex printers....

Again.... These guys spend millions of dollars on RND. The printer manufacturer as well as the vinyl manufacturer has recommended offgas times for certain technologies.... If offgassing was fake, it's the equivalent of you installing a sign, putting a bag over it and telling your customer while your competitors signs can be viewed right away, they can't look at it for 6 hours or it'll void the warranty .... What'd be the point?

Yes, 9/10 times you're fine laminating after an hour or so. But to just write off offgassing as some conspiracy every single solvent printer manufacturer fabricated is lunacy.

It's like the idiots who go 100,000 miles without an oil change and cry when their engine seized saying that oil changes are a scam because they can't see the effect one has.

Just because you can't physically see the media offgassing doesn't mean it's not happening, or doesn't need to....


Trust the printer manufacturers and vinyl manufacturers... Not some guys on a forum...


If you have to rush and laminate right away, go ahead. But your better off, and less risk of a failure if you follow the specifications of your printer.

Exactly. I've seen horrible offgassing in offset printing before when testing out a new media or ink combination. Same goes for solvent/eco solvent. I'd never do less than the recommended time, unless it's ultra short-term and customer is aware of what might happen. I give myself the time to let stuff offgass when I quote turnarounds. In very rare cases, and it's only for stickers going on short-term jars for labeling, I will let something sit for 3hrs minimum before laminate hits it, but again these are for jar labels and very short term life on shelf.

 

[bob]

I wonder if the out-gas debate has anything to do with liquid laminate vs adhesive laminate. Random suggestion: for those (Bob) who don't believe outgassing solvent inks is important, maybe because they can out gas while the liquid laminate you use is setting/drying? but with an adhesive laminate, it's trapped immediately. Just a thought.

Also it really depends on the type of printer, and how much ink is being laid down.

Vinyl is gas permeable. Liquid laminate, which is acrylic, is not.

 

[bob]

look at maaco & other franchise companies that have an "oven" to speed curing, reducing time to a few hours.
in spite of this, you are told to not wadh the car for several weeks

A LARGE PORTION of solvents are gone in minutes

Maaco et. al. are painting with enamels, synthetic or real, which do not cure via evaporation.

 

[MelloImagingTechnologies]

For 15 years I have been including BBC Infrared Dryers with solvent printer sales.
My customers can use these to fully dry the prints just like the Latex.
The 150’ roll goes immediately into the laminator and has zero problems!

 

[Mike Paul]

We’ve all laminated soon after printing because of a flub up or rush job without issue.

I always wait 24 hours and if the prints are dark 48 hours. Some people say if you laminate to quickly it makes the ink outgas into the adhesive and makes it hard to work with, personally I think it makes the laminate shrink on the printed vinyl. Seen it on multiple jobs over the years unless it’s just bad laminate.
I really only do vehicle graphics and use cast film and laminate only. Who knows but I prefer to wait.
Keep in mind 24 hours doesn’t mean overnight…

 

[RabidOne]

we took the plastic end caps, zip tied to a scrap piece of MDO, and then took the cores, glued them onto the plastic caps
View attachment 162659

Similar setup here

 

[Notarealsignguy]

Here is the mysterious "off gassing" Aka solvent pop. It's 92% humidity and low 70s here right now which is why we got it. Job will still fly. Bet I could go stick vinyl over it right now and it wouldn't do a thing. For all the talk about it here, I've yet to see a definitive example of it actually happening on vinyl.

 

[Mike Paul]

Multiple Box fans layed flat overs 2x4’s blowing up on slow setting.
Vinyl prints to be loosely rolled and set on top vertically.

If I remember right Pro wraps posted that years ago.

Does it help ??? Who knows.

My father in law always said “wish in one hand and shit in the other and see which one gets fill first”

 

[Joseph44708]

What I print today I laminate if needed and cut tomorrow.
After printing I loosely fluff the roll over night.
If you can smell a strong odor from the ink don't laminate or cut yet

 

[brdesign]

I used to run an older Roland eco-solvent and prints with heavy saturation would take a couple of days to dry enough that the ink didn't smear or stick to everything. We built a box with dividers to hold several verticle rolls of printed vinyl. At the bottom of the box, we placed a box fan to pull air down through the loosely rolled vinyl and blow it out the bottom. That would really speed up the drying time. I now run a Mimaki and it only needs a few hours to dry and doesn't require the box fan dryer.

 

[signdudegraphix]

We use a Yellotools boost box bucket to off gas our prints. They say you can get 24 hours worth of off gassing in 4 hours. We haven’t had any issues from using this method.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

Temp and humidity are the biggest factors. These contraptions seem like the placebo effect.

 

[ikarasu]

Paint is the same way. We screenprint 300,000 sheets of reflective for a government job every year - We have the rack space for 50,000 sheets - One time we noticed dust getting on the sheets, so we bought that big painters roll of plastic and loosly wrapped it around the racks and above it to prevent dust from getting in - Next day we come in and everything was still tacky, and if you stacked the sheets ontop of eachother they'd re-wet themselves and ruin. Without airflow... wet items dont dry as well.

Take a roll of backing paper from your laminator, sprinkle some water in the roll then wrap it up - it'll still be wet hours / days later if you keep it tight. If you loosely wind it... throw a fan under it, it'll dry way faster.

In theory it makes sense that the boost box / a dry rack works - But does it work better than just loosly unwinding the roll a bit so it gets airflow? No clue! If a fan is blowing on it, it'll dry faster... but how loose can a roll be? Its not like every part of the roll is getting blown on...so what, does every other wind offgass since its open to the fan, then the rest doesn't? Could be a placebo effect...could be just the act of loosening it and letting it sit for a few hours does a good enough job.

 

[signdudegraphix]

Just to clarify, the boost box has a fan that pulls air through from the top out through the bottom. It works very well.

 

[jfiscus]

The reason that the airflow needs to go out the bottom of the rolls/box is that solvents are heavier than regular air, so they want to go downwards. Loosen the rolls up as much as you can and put it into the box, it definitely makes a difference; leaving it tightly rolled overnight just traps the solvents between layers and doesn't help anything.