General Rant Concerning "schooled" Designers

[WildWestDesigns]

I find thinking that you are either born with something or your not, to be a very constrictive way of thinking. And somewhat lazy way of thinking.

It kind of pushes aside the notion of trying to improve in an area that may or may not come easy to you. It can be so easily just thought of "you aren't born with it, so why even bother? Because you sure aren't going to be as good as those that it comes naturally to."

I'm not saying that it doesn't come easier for some then it does for others. Don't get me wrong on that.

But it is what you put into it.

 

[Gino]

Notice I said GOOD DESIGNER....not Signs101 designers. You can send me to school for caricatures but it will do you no good because I cant draw them. I cant and never will be able to. Ive tried.
My mother took oil painting lessons, she has art hanging in her house that should have never been hung, it sucks because she cant draw.

Whatever talent or hidden secret a human has is already embedded inside of them, drawing, cooking, sports....whatever it is. Now the "others" that are taught these skills will never match up to thiose that already had it inside

Whatever one hangs in their house, regardless if they made it or a nephew or neighbor made it..... art is in the eye of the beholder. Just like I could care less, if you or anyone else agree with me on certain subjects or all subjects. Most of the time, other input means nothing, just as in art appreciation.

As for designing....... today, anyone can learn it, whether they can draw or not. The programs do all the work, not the person pushing the mouse. Designers aRe a dime a dozen, now. Illustrations is/are what you might have in mind when saying you need some God given talents. However, they must be honed and taught many things along the way. Very few people are prodigies, so, let's just keep this at professional levels and not the super duper ones. Alas, let's just remember, you still need to practice and learn everyday, no matter how good you are, or you'll go stale. Gotta keep those creative juices flowing.

 

[Johnny Best]

Visual800: So from your own experience from not being able to draw caricatures and never being able to through education. You are of the assumption it is in our DNA if you are going to be good at something. So if I am a skinny kid at the beach with my girlfriend and some muscle guy comes up and kicks sand in my face and steals my girlfriend, I can't start working out and bulking up by teaching myself about health and eating right to become strong. That I won't be able to kick that guy's but and get my girlfriend back? Your wrong about learning, your born with being smart, and your poor mother loves her paintings no matter what you say and I think she drop you on your head when she was hanging one of her paintings and that part of your brain that helps you draw caricatures was damaged.

 

[chester215]

I'd have to agree with WWD.
Many have the natural ability to do certain things while others do not.
I see many questions on the forum regarding things I would consider mechanically easy to figure out or diagnose.
I will admit my creative talents are lacking but i can fix almost anything (just ask my 8 yr old daughter).

 

[chitown928]

I do not hold a degree in Graphic Design. My training was from a military school back in 1995. We covered the basics and I mean "BASICS" (color theory, hand sketching, lettering technique, shading, ets.). We spent maybe two class periods on computers (Macs I believe) It wasn't until getting to my actual duty station that I was sat in front of a pc and was told to "learn it". So here I am 22yrs later retired from the military and working full time at the sign shop for 13 years now. I am self taught and I like to think I'm pretty darn good at it.

On to my rant. I was given a work request. Customer wants 500 of one decal white on clear & 300 of another, same white on clear. The only other stipulation is that the decals need to be 2"h x ?. Files provided are white transparent png's. Simple two line text. I set the proof up and send to the customer for approval. "No, sizes need to be...." and "WHY can't you use the files as given". Who is this clown!? I say to myself. Look at the name on the workorder and low and behold it's a client whom I had problems with before. This person holds a degree in Graphic Design and designed the decals themself and have been around a while, as in not fresh out of school! I took it upon myself to "vectorize" the decals for spot color use something we normally charge for. A png is not 1 color. Anyway I tried a trace but the results weren't to my liking. I managed to find the fonts used and proceeded with the layout. Still puzzled by the size request.

My next email to the person was rather lengthy as I tried to explain why a png should not have been the file type of choice.1st choice and most universal file format should be pdf. Why? Pantone are preserved, as well as, gradients or "fountain fills" as I would prefer them to be called. As long as one knows what they are doing when producing the pdf. 2nd choice would be eps (except fountain fills) and3rd choice would be the native file format saved to an earlier version. Add to this that the png's did not come in at the requested size, as is typical of png's or at least from someone who doesn't know how to properly make a specific size png.

Conclusion - Why aren't the "schooled" taught these things from the get go! Or why haven't they learned something other than what the schools teach.

Anyone who holds a degree in Graphic Design should have enough brains to know that a png file is not a production ready file. This degree holder needs to go back to school. Whenever i get a png file. I request a proper file. If I'm forced to work from a png file. I will notify the sender that there will be computer time charged for recreating artwork. They usually send the proper file afterwards.

 

[klmiller611]

I think there is some natural ability that is indeed born in but it needs to be trained in the vast majority of people.

Designers now seem to be barely taught how to do things. When I went to college back in the mid 1970s, it was a different world, no computers, typesetting was difficult. But the ability to make a piece look good and easy to read is both learned and somewhat intuitive. Once you know theory and practical application, designers know how to do things. Now, mechanically speaking, of how to properly prepare a file for print in any form, that is not taught today, at least to my experience.

A lot of it comes from the mindset that "I've got a computer, I've got software and some fonts, therefore, I must be a designer." Now, just because I have a bunch of tools to work on a car, does that make me a mechanic? Of course not. Do I know without any training how to take apart a motor? No. Do I want to? No. When it comes to professional work, that is who I hire.

College today does not teach graphic arts, and the mechanical requirements. They let you do stuff in Photoshop and maybe touch on Illustrator, but the instructors do not have the mechanical understanding of how it works in real life. I'll give you a prime example from some years back. I worked at a media place as their art manager. I'm the one who brought the computers into the art department and I learn and study myself how to do things. Then my job got eliminated (political situation). I went and did freelance work. I had to learn even more about file prep, as we were now on the edge of outputting files direct to film, to burn printing plates. I got very good at troubleshooting stuff, and did consulting work for several print and sign shops.

A few years after I was gone from my job, they hired a new designer. The place normally put up notice about new hires on the bulletin board with some background. One of my friends who was still there told me about this designer and all the glowing background on how he was sooooo experienced in print. About 6 months later, I was in the print shop that I had a close relationship with and they were laughing about a job this guy sent in. He knew just so much and had provided the negatives to the shop. They dutifully made a proof to let him approve it before printing 10,000 of them.

On seeing the proof, he just about went ballistic, their logo was nowhere to be seen. He was busy blaming them until they pulled the film out on the light table, no logo. The so-called great print experience guy had forgotten to link it back, and set it to print.

Now, the point of that story is, this is the same person that was moonlighting teaching this stuff at community college. This was not the only occasion I heard of mistakes with him either, low res photoshop logos, stuff without proper bleeds, etc. etc. And this is what was teaching a next generation of designers?

I think for the most part, they simply say to the students, "don't worry about that, they can fix it in post production (or pre-press)" Same way with photographers.

They simply do not understand the process. I had a couple of interns over time, I drilled it into them about properly produced files and how it saves them time and money. It only stuck with one.

With the same printshop, I went with them to meet with a large local ad agency. The agency kept on sending stuff that simply did not work, I was having to go in and fix things to keep the film coming out and presses running. The owner said no more, go explain what you need and why. We did explain to them how it would save them time and more importantly money, and instead of us sending stuff back to them, it would simply go to proof. The head guy said, in essence, he did not care, they were going to continue doing it their way. I guess the final word on that was, they lost their biggest client and closed about two years later. Was it because of the increased costs of not doing things right? Who knows.

I get stuff in almost daily that astounds me.

Ken

 

[Johnny Best]

As Lady Gaga says, "born this way"

 

[peavey123]

It's kind of ironic all the complaining about bad designers, but there was a time not too long ago where some of the best designers posted here all the time. Y'all just seem to hate designers in general. lol

 

[myront]

In line with my original post. I'm not necessarily critiquing "designers" or designs just what's being taught or not taught.
1. Difference between raster and vector.
2. cut ready art
3. print ready
4. converting fonts and installing/unistalling
5. creating universal files i.e. PROPER pdf's or eps and what's best for any situation. Example. The "artist" mentioned in admitted to designing the decals in photoshop then proceeded to send me huge eps files. It's two lines of text that need to be white print on clear vinyl. WHY WOULD ANYONE DO THAT? They got lucky and all I had to do was work a little magic on my end to get the decals prepped right. Oh, and the cut line was like .001" off the edge of the text. I told them no plotter would accurately cut that close on long runs. Recommended we scale the white down a tad.
With final approval Monday afternoon I get this - "Can I have them by Thurs"? To which I reply....."uh....no....3-5 business days"

 

[printhog]

I've had a "designer" supply black and white jpg text for a truck wrap. The customer was elated when I told him we could reset the text in flexi in under 10 minutes and plot it in black vinyl to save him a grand. He never went back to that designer and we got all his advertising work for two decades.

its only a freaking sign!

 

[myront]

...we could reset the text in flexi...
by reset you mean "trace" right. Or maybe re-typeset if the font is known.
80% of the time we add an art fee to do that.

 

[equippaint]

You learn with time and experience in everything you do. You cant expect anyone to come out of school, no matter what they've learned, and be an expert. This goes from a mechanic on up to a heart surgeon. Hire and pay someone properly that knows all the stuff or pay a newbie less and teach them. If you know much more than the people youre getting your artwork from it shouldnt be but a few mins to fix a few things and call it good. You're the professional in your trade that's supposed to know this stuff for your particular application, not the designer, they may not know your medium or are designing an idea thats used on web, offset print and signs. As for the innate talent in design, thats all well and good but so many of the "born with its" havent got a clue on marketing either, so dont pat yourself on the back too hard for your designs that are so pretty and compatible with your printer. They are quite possibly considered ineffective by the know nothing marketing people.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

You're the professional in your trade that's supposed to know this stuff for your particular application, not the designer, they may not know your medium or are designing an idea thats used on web, offset print and signs.

That's all well and good, if and only if, they accept what you have to say about what will or won't translate. Some do, but some want it done regardless of the quality. Just so long as it is "as is".

When a designer sells a design package that includes branding for apparel (or whatever the application may be), it is up to them to make sure that they know how to design for that particular application. Have options of varying complexities, but will still keep up with the branding, so if one is used over another, it will still convey the same message. Especially if they are going to tell their customers it either looks exactly like this or it's no dice. If they are unsure, then they need to have a connection to someone that can help them out, so they can do the best to advise their clients while still keeping close to their branding.

I've had some "designers" tell their customer that this is supposed to be done "as is", not matter what the application. Sorry, but right then and there, the "designer" has no excuse not knowing the various mediums that are statistically used the most. You would be surprised about what does and doesn't work. Simple does not always work.

This is regardless of what file types they send me. I do the same work if it's a vector or raster file. That doesn't matter, as long as my programs can reliably open it and it's of good resolution to where I can work 6:1, doesn't matter. I don't have that particular issue. It can be a sketch and I can get it to work (typically when I'm doing stock designs, most of them never make it to the clean vector stage, I go from sketch to finished stitch file, same quality as if I had finished the vector work; so I have slightly different concerns here).

When I design a logo for someone, I can promise them that it will work in embroidery. Hat, LC, FB doesn't matter, I will make sure that there is a way for a competent digitizer (if they don't use me) that it will translate. Beyond that, I tell them to use the advise of the person that they've gone to for whatever the other application may be. I don't have the ego to presume that my knowledge of embroidery production gives me the same knowledge about other applications.

 

[Oroscoe]

It sucks to hire a college grad with a design degree and have to train them.

 

[qmr55]

It sucks to hire a college grad with a design degree and have to train them.

Show me a job in just about any field where the hired college grad does not need some sort of training....

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Show me a job in just about any field where the hired college grad does not need some sort of training....

Some sort of training...yes. That is to be expected.

To have to train them on something that should have been taught in school is something else. Various file types and converting text to outlines/curves etc, those should have been covered in class. If classes are nothing more then training how to use software and nothing else, then anything that is (what I would call) basics of most (if not all) graphics software, then there is no excuse.

I get hired on for equine nutrition job (what my formal education is in (that was a real windy day when the apple fell from that tree)), they expect me to know Pearson Square and not to have to train me on that right out of college.

 

[qmr55]

Some sort of training...yes. That is to be expected.

To have to train them on something that should have been taught in school is something else. Various file types and converting text to outlines/curves etc, those should have been covered in class. If classes are nothing more then training how to use software and nothing else, then anything that is (what I would call) basics of most (if not all) graphics software, then there is no excuse.

I get hired on for equine nutrition job (what my formal education is in (that was a real windy day when the apple fell from that tree)), they expect me to know Pearson Square and not to have to train me on that right out of college.

If you're hiring kids who don't know how to do basic things as that, then you are hiring the wrong people my friend.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

If you're hiring kids who don't know how to do basic things as that, then you are hiring the wrong people my friend.

Not the people that I hire. Unfortunately, they are some of the ones that my digitizing customers use for their work. In that regard, they do affect me.

 

[bob]

...You can learn to do anything. You learnt to speak didn't you? someone had to teach you, you weren't born with that talent.

Twaddle. You can study music, read music, know all the notes, know all the progressions, know all the modes. You can own an instrument and play those notes on it. But that's no sign you're making music. Not by a long shot. You're just playing some notes that are a step above noise. You're merely a hack getting by.

Tiy can study software. Know all the languages, know all the theory, know all the instructions, know all the objects [If OO is your style, not everyone is ga ga over it. Some of us are old school scratch-it-on-the-bare-metal types]. You can make flow charts, you can make decision trees, you can make all manner of functionally useless diagrams. You can know assemblers, you can know compilers, you can know interpreters, you can know machine language. You can belly up to a keyboard and write a sequence of instructions that even manage to execute error-free. But you're not necessarily doing programming.You're merely a hack getting by.

These things you can either do or you can't do. No amount of training and knowledge will enable you to do either of these things, and a host of others, well.

As for what your and most everyone else in these waters calls 'design' is mostly typography. That, and actual brush-and-paint sign writing can be learned by anyone with more than a pair of functioning brain cells and at least one opposable thumb. But actual creative design, just like music and software, you either can do or you cannot. You're merely a hack getting by.

You never learned to speak, it's innate, it's what it means to be human. Language is what it means to be humane and most acquire it around two years old. Before your acquire Language, that's Language not merely making sounds with your mouth or whatever, you did not think. You cannot think without Language. Language IS thinking.

 

[Pauly]

Twaddle. You can study music, read music, know all the notes, know all the progressions, know all the modes. You can own an instrument and play those notes on it. But that's no sign you're making music. Not by a long shot. You're just playing some notes that are a step above noise. You're merely a hack getting by.

Tiy can study software. Know all the languages, know all the theory, know all the instructions, know all the objects [If OO is your style, not everyone is ga ga over it. Some of us are old school scratch-it-on-the-bare-metal types]. You can make flow charts, you can make decision trees, you can make all manner of functionally useless diagrams. You can know assemblers, you can know compilers, you can know interpreters, you can know machine language. You can belly up to a keyboard and write a sequence of instructions that even manage to execute error-free. But you're not necessarily doing programming.You're merely a hack getting by.

These things you can either do or you can't do. No amount of training and knowledge will enable you to do either of these things, and a host of others, well.

As for what your and most everyone else in these waters calls 'design' is mostly typography. That, and actual brush-and-paint sign writing can be learned by anyone with more than a pair of functioning brain cells and at least one opposable thumb. But actual creative design, just like music and software, you either can do or you cannot. You're merely a hack getting by.

You never learned to speak, it's innate, it's what it means to be human. Language is what it means to be humane and most acquire it around two years old. Before your acquire Language, that's Language not merely making sounds with your mouth or whatever, you did not think. You cannot think without Language. Language IS thinking.

Still disagree. It's just ignorance.

If someone wants to learn how to do something, they can put their mind to it and do it. You can be apart of those people who don't like putting their mind to something and keep going at it.

I know a singer that couldn't sing for shit. but had the dedication, got the right training. now sings all over Melbourne.
I know an artist also. She would just paint things like every one else did, nothing special. She took classes for years after school and now is recognised world wide, has done thing for The Rock, Chris brown to name a couple.

You can be as ignorant as you want, You can not believe people can actually learn things. But yes, it's actually possible.
Ignorance is why you don't apply your self. The more your apply yourself, the better you can be.