Getting paid for your work

[ontsigngirl]

This question was posed in the buying artwork thread - a few people thought it may be a worth while thread on it's own.



If someone hires you to create "original" artwork for them and you can't seem to give them exactly what they want - when do you call it quits? How do you get compensation for what you've done up to that point? Do you request a down payment? Do you get paid for an idea - without actually producing finished artwork. Any takers?

 

[cdiesel]

Deposit up front. Billed hourly, and if you think you're going to go over the budgeted design time, let the client know as soon as you think that. That alone will usually help them decide on what they want. If not, you're covering your butt for when you go to them and tell them that you need more money to proceed.

 

[weaselboogie]

Good advise. When I'm charging hourly, I try to let them know at every change or presentation where we're at hourly.

 

[Craig Sjoquist]

Well if a client has good visual of what type of work you do and styles etc. by seeing past and present work, they should have no problem with deposit and or paying another idea if needed and most likely readjustments to one just designed.

People do not expect you to work for nothing and they see that when presented with real investment in time and talent.

 

[wetgravy]

All my illustration work starts with a non-refundable art and design fee that gets me through the proof stage. After that it's hourly, with payments required at stages of completion. Work resumes after payments have been made at those points. (so if it takes a week for payment, work stops for that week.) if customer decides he doesn't want the art at any of the stages of completion, they are still accountable for 60% of the quoted estimate. Anything over, I refund back since it's written into all my work contracts that until all payments have been made ... the art is mine fully. (and in part to preserve customer relations) Anything under, I can request payment for the remaining of the 60% but in the 3 cases in the last 10 years that this has happened ... the customer is such a pill that I consider it a wash and throw the art into my stock design folder to re-use in other designs. Most of my design work is about the same, but since it's relatively easy to quote for things like logos, layout work and of course creation of graphics ... I just require the art fee for proofs, half to get started and the rest on completion.

 

[iSign]

sign design or logo design are the areas I tell clients right off the bat that it is more difficult to quote. I explain that my shop rate is $100 an hour, so I build my design quotes around that number... BUT, the way I actually proceed is like this.

When someone comes in to talk about design work... I let them talk, I answer their questions, and I ask a lot of questions... and I try to see if I think I can help them, if they seem to know what they want, and how much they seem to trust me or appreciate my design work on my samples or my web portfolios... so at this point, I have not agreed to do the work, but I am trying to get a feel if I want to offer them a $500 logo, a $250 redraw of their own concept, or a $150 sign design following their design suggestions...

As for the earlier comments of design being "hard to quote" I explain that I have no control over their happiness with a design, and as much as I want them to be happy, my approach is to talk, then to sketch, then to quote a price. If they are not happy, they need to communicate their concerns as soon as possible, because the quoted price is tied to time, not to their absolute happiness with the outcome.

Most of my logos are $500. Some day they should be $800 - $1000.. but I'm knocking out 4 or 5 hour logos, and times are tough for me & my clients.. so I've done the math & if I make my shop rate, as well as reeling in a happy customer, who brings me all his sign work & sings my praises.. I don't want to lose these guys by charging too much...

Last logo I posted here some of the designers I look up to mentioned that $500 was a "deal" or even a "steal' for my client... so on the next logo I sold, a few days ago.. I said $600..

...well, wouldn't you know it.. the client said his budget was $500, so I caved pretty quick, and agreed that this would be the number that we would shoot for..

BUT, this comes back to the questions Ontsigngirl posted... I'm not promising the guy he gets a logo he loves for $500... by the time I even say I can help the client, or I say a price, I have discussed the job, heard their ideas, let my own ideas come through & then sketched out some REALLY rough, loose graphic representations of concepts...

...and at this point, I am basically pointing at a sketch they have been drawn to, and saying something like, "If you think you will like an ornamental "panel" shape, with a colored border, ragged script lettering streaking across the top with a drop shadow.. a monogram centered above that, & a small reverse panel with the subcopy... and a little pictorial in an oval at the bottom... like this sketch... then I think I can come up with a few variations on a theme, for $500.. & you would give me half down & I would start doing some half-baked versions on the computer, after which we will have a second consultation (often by phone or email) where you can give me feedback again.

I remind them that the $500 (or whatever) price is based on my belief that I can do something like the concept discussed in 5 hours. I explain that I never spend the whole 5 hours up front, & then say "here it is,... hope you like it because I blew the whole budget already"...

I always try to hold myself back from completing a logo, and try to just get some different fonts and some different shapes, colors or ideas into 2 or 3 variations.. leaving a good 30 - 40% of the budgeted time available for after the second consultation...


(in truth, if I'm having fun, which I usually am, and if one layout really starts to gel for me... which also usually happens, I might go ahead and "finish" that one.. and then I find myself making a few quick variations of it, with different colors or fonts... thinking this is just because I promised 2 or 3 rough drafts... so I'm trying to bang out 2 losers after finishing one I love... but of course, half the time, one of those variations becomes one I love even more... again, this is especially true if I'm having fun...)

I explain that in the second consultation they might like the colors of one, the fonts of another, and have some changes like relative sizes of copy, or graphic elements.. and they should identify everything they can that they do, or don't like, and 9 times out of 10, the next drawing I show them is a winner, or needs a 15 minute tweak to be complete. I might even mention that if a client really does not like what has been done after the first round of drawings, they might feel like I am not the right designer for this project, and they can cancel the project, paying only for the first half of the work that has been completed. I tell them this has happened maybe twice in 15 years, and there were no hard feelings on either side, because the terms were clear up front.

 

[Dan Antonelli]

Just be careful basing too much of your pricing on hourly rates. While I agree they should loosely be related, do not penalize yourself for efficiencies gleaned after years, or decades honing your craft. We can do logos faster now after 500 under our belts, than say 5 or 10 years ago (and their much better, too). But I'm not about to sell it for any less because our experience and expertise has made us more efficient.

Our logo agreements budget up to 15 hours including stationery design, and beyond that it is hourly at $125. We have unlimited revisions within that timeline. But if if comes in less time, the price is still the same.

 

[signage]

Dan do you tell the clients how much time you have into them?

 

[schramm]

I agree with all the great info mentioned. I will add something that was part of your question that needs to be addressed. When you initially sit down with your client to go over cost you need to ask the questions that will get you the answers into what they are looking for. If the client can give you a generic sketch of what they are looking for chances are your experience will fill in the blanks and allow you a way to come up with a logo that they like. When you ask when is enough is enough, well I dont know your experience but you should within a reasonable amount of time be able to design something for them that they like, and not at the end of the 2nd day say I have exhausted all your funds and you will need more money to go further.

I agree it is impossible to give a true estimate of what something will cost, but if you are experienced chances are you could come up with a 1-2-3 formula of cost. Each level has a different cost, one of the smartest guys for this type of formula is Dave Butler, check out www.davidbutler.com. I think his method of giving the customer an idea of cost up front by showing levels of finish design is brilliant as that is how I ran my finish shop for years.

While there is no real way to answer that question I do think after exhausting $500-1500 of there money you owe them a design they can use, but that is just my opinion and you dont have to agree. I always think that word travels fast......

Rob

 

[Dan Antonelli]

Dan do you tell the clients how much time you have into them?

I'll keep them informed of hours generally when we start approaching our cap. This serves two purposes; obviously it lets them know that the 'can you try this, or what about if we do this' art direction will begin to cost them additional money; and secondly, it helps finalize the decision much quicker.

Truth be told though, we rarely exceed hours, and I can only think of one or two to have done that out of the last hundred or so logos. Usually our creative brief, and subsequent interview and research does a very good job

This logo, that we did recently http://www.graphicd-signs.com/portfolio-logo-retail#43 - did in fact exceed 15 hours, but I was willing to eat some of it because the initial creative brief was off mark (initially client wanted simple, clean lines, then changed mid stream to illustrative style). Not really my fault, but he's also doing another 8 or 9K worth for web and collateral work, so I'm not going to nickel and dime a couple hundred bucks.

It raises interesting point for us, because illustrative type logos will in fact take longer to render than corporate approaches. Had we originally known from the beginning that was path, we would have put the fee higher.

 

[ontsigngirl]

iSign -

Last logo I posted here some of the designers I look up to mentioned that $500 was a "deal" or even a "steal' for my client

Can you direct me to this post?

 

[ontsigngirl]

thanks everyone for their responses - It was quite an eye opener - another couple of things to add to already long list.

Wetgravy -
I assume this agreement is in writing do you also take the time to go over it verbally for first time clients - also is the deposit based on a percentage of the final price?

iSign-
by the time I even say I can help the client, or I say a price, I have discussed the job, heard their ideas, let my own ideas come through & then sketched out some REALLY rough, loose graphic representations of concepts...

Is the sketch on paper because you're more comfortable starting this way or more so someone doesn't walk off with a "too finished" concept?

To everyone -
Have these practises been in place in your businesses right from day one - or is this something you'd gradually added over the years?

 

[iSign]

iSign -

Last logo I posted here some of the designers I look up to mentioned that $500 was a "deal" or even a "steal' for my client

Can you direct me to this post?

click my name, go to my profile, click "statistics"... and then you can use this sequence to see what anybody has been posting about, either through "posts by iSign" ...or in this case, click "threads started by iSign" ...and you will see one or two posts back is a trucker logo thread.... and the sketch is because it is fast, done during the free 15 - 20 minute design consultation...

and it is something that developed over time, but not from other folks opinions... from my own experience, so it's probably close to what I did 15 years ago too...

 

[James Burke]

Rob mentioned David Butler in his post up there. I visited his shop last year and was absolutely stunned with awe.

 

[Rick]

I am supposed to get child support every month... I never get the full amount every month but people tell me all the time "times being as they are, at least it's something"... I have "at least" my something into her her owing me so much, that she can't even keep up with the interest now.

This applies to my business, I am dirt cheap compared to the design firms I have worked at... but I am considerably higher than local sign shops... times are hard, but not hard enough where clients still invest 40-60k on a gardening outfit, 250k-500k for a restaurant start up or 150k for a big rig. Some of these people make more money than I do. If I do not charge enough, I will always play catch up. I only design so I can't make it up in selling a sign.

Here is my answer from the other thread but with more info...

If someone hires you to create "original" artwork for them and you can't seem to give them exactly what they want - when do you call it quits? How do you get compensation for what you've done up to that point? Do you request a down payment? Do you get paid for an idea - without actually producing finished artwork. Any takers?

First off, take out the word "artist" and replace it with "business person"

There are a few ways of going about this... most sign shops design for free to sell the sign... the sign is the product to them. Many here try to get a down payment before, but in the real world, most do not.

In order to give the client what they want, I start with a creative brief and a contract... the creative brief is a protection to both parties. A creative brief is a questionnaire to get some form of visual language or a target for the designer to hit. If the client strays from the creative brief, then the client wasted your time, you charge them with no hesitation. Most graphic designers start with a contract... either hourly or lump sum. They get a down payment, and will get paid for their time. A design contract should have a "kill fee" so if the mix is not right, then a client or designer has an out. if you as a designer can not fulfill the design requirements, maybe you do give the down payment back because that's good business, but if you followed the brief, then it's good business that you do not allow people to window shop or take advantage of you simply because they can not make up their mind....

3 good books on the business of design I highly recommend.

"Talent Is Not Enough: Business Secrets For Designers" by Shel Perkin
"Graphic Artist's Guild Handbook of Pricing and Ethical Guidelines" by Graphic Artists Guild
"The Creative Business Guide to Running a Graphic Design Business" by Cameron S. Foote

(I'm not really going broke reading them)

There is a basic standard for graphic design.... there does not seem to be a standard for the sign industry except possibly the large architectural part.

For the standard form of agreement you can go to:
http://www.aiga.org/content.cfm/standard-agreement
http://www.aiga.org/resources/content/3/5/9/7/documents/aiga_9standard_agreement_07.pdf

A nice short version you can modify...
http://jefffisherlogomotives.blogspot.com/2008/07/signing-on-dotted-line.html

You can google: "design brief"

Or there is a book called:
"The Savvy Designer's Guide To Success: Ideas and Tactics for a Killer Career" Jeff Fisher... it's nice plain english on how to set your business up

I usually design in lump sum amounts... on logo design there is a minimum amount and goes up depending on if they only need the logo, or a complete system.

My "design" work is based on percentage of the budget and I will estimate hours, which ever number is higher is the one I will propose. The standard I have seen thrown around is 10%, sometimes I design the whole project, sometimes I only do the drafting and production.

Again, since I only design, I have to charge a little more for design, if I was making the sign or printing it, I can make it up a little on the product.

I also freelance design work to architects, design firms and sign shops... the amount is considerably lower than my regular rate... the rate goes higher if I can not include the work in my portfolio. They pay even if their client does not like the work. That policy is in place because once the design leaves my hands, i am not around to pitch the design, and i am getting info usually from a third party... this makes designing a lot harder.

 

[ontsigngirl]

posts by isign

click my name, go to my profile, click "statistics"... and then you can use this sequence to see what anybody has been posting about, either through "posts by iSign" ...or in this case, click "threads started by iSign" ...and you will see one or two posts back is a trucker logo thread.... and the sketch is because it is fast, done during the free 15 - 20 minute design consultation...

and it is something that developed over time, but not from other folks opinions... from my own experience, so it's probably close to what I did 15 years ago too...

Thanks I got it - it's hard to believe the finished product started with that little "scribble" I do "scribbles" to a certain extent but I find I can develop things better on the computer. When/if you have a "dry spell" what do you use for inspiration?

Oh, and thanks for the link for clip art - I bought a clip art collection 12 years ago which I still reference once in awhile - but the art is pretty outdated and quite juvenile.

 

[signswi]

All your logos should start as scribbles, think back to art school (didn't go to art school? we also did this in high school art) you do 20++ generations of one idea before you find a couple worth pursuing and refining. That's not to say you can't "scribble" on the computer with a tablet/cintiq of course but the point remains.

Great discussion guys, quite a bit of sanity in this thread for an industry full of insane art pricing schemes (and lack thereof).

 

[wetgravy]

I agree with all the great info mentioned. I will add something that was part of your question that needs to be addressed. When you initially sit down with your client to go over cost you need to ask the questions that will get you the answers into what they are looking for. If the client can give you a generic sketch of what they are looking for chances are your experience will fill in the blanks and allow you a way to come up with a logo that they like. When you ask when is enough is enough, well I dont know your experience but you should within a reasonable amount of time be able to design something for them that they like, and not at the end of the 2nd day say I have exhausted all your funds and you will need more money to go further.

I love sketches. When I sit down with a customer asking questions, I'm already sketching out ideas. By the time I leave to come up with proofs for the customer, I already have half my work completed and the customer has some idea of what to see when they receive the proof pack. This is the same for signs, banners, illustrations, letterheads, etc. My briefcase is filled with my cmyk swatch book, an illustration pack for sketching, vellum and of course graph paper I designed and printed. Also quote sheets and other give away stuff (business cards, brochures, post cards, calendars, etc) ... but that is just standard.

 

[ontsigngirl]

a different experience

I love sketches. When I sit down with a customer asking questions, I'm already sketching out ideas. By the time I leave to come up with proofs for the customer, I already have half my work completed and the customer has some idea of what to see when they receive the proof pack. This is the same for signs, banners, illustrations, letterheads, etc. My briefcase is filled with my cmyk swatch book, an illustration pack for sketching, vellum and of course graph paper I designed and printed. Also quote sheets and other give away stuff (business cards, brochures, post cards, calendars, etc) ... but that is just standard.

I have had some experience sitting with a customer to find out what they want but most of my experience is taking direction from a salesperson or project co-ordinator so I guess in that way most of the information gathering is done. I'm usually not in the position of having to come up with ideas on the fly. I usually come up with 3 ideas and they pick one and I develop it from there - but it's a few days before I present anything. Do most people expect an idea of what you'll give them or is it just a luxury because you have that ability?

 

[iSign]

Generally, in this biz... Nobody has a freakin clue what to expect when they walk in... Surprise then with a great customer experience, and they're usually your's for life!