Gilding over lacquer

[letterman7]

Ok gang, I'm faced with a weird issue. I do quite a bit of gilding for a couple local golf clubs for their yearly awards boards. One club has these wood plaques pre-made locally, and for some odd reason I cannot get the size to stick. The wood has been sprayed with Sherwin-Williams catalyzed lacquer as a finish top coat, and I'm using a stencil mask for the copy. I've tried the quick-dry size from LeFranc, and as I pull the mask off the gold and the size comes with it - and the size isn't dry all the way, which I do to try to prevent such a thing from happening. I've also tried the regular LeFranc size with similar results, though not quite as bad, which tells me it's grabbing the topcoat a little better.
Any suggestions? Mix a little lacquer thinner with the size? Use some of the lacquer as a size? This is a yearly thing, so whatever I do has to be repeatable...

Thanks in advance!

Rick

 

[GVP]

Greetings!

Sorry I can't help with your question, but I am curious - do you gild the lettering with the mask still in place, or remove then gild?

 

[Gino]

Not sure the lacquer is your problem. I've gilded over many a lacquered surfaces without any real problems.

You mentioned the lacquer was sprayed on. Could it be the coating has some over-spray settled on it [hard to feel with your fingers] and the size isn't knitting to a proper surface but rather to a porous surface ?? Who put this clear coat on ?? A professional or some schmuck that can't spray evenly ??

The other thing, when I remove frisket, I generally remove it almost after putting it down, so the edges flow out a little better. I almost always use regular, as I don't like Quick Size, so I usually wait about two hours, then remove. About 10 to 15 hours later, I'm ready to go. according to the drying conditions. Right now it's a longer window, so it's a little tougher to judge.

 

[letterman7]

Yes, it's a professional finish. There doesn't seem to be any overspray at all - I have five in the shop at the moment and they appear exactly the same (except for the wood, of course). I prefer to gild with the frisket in place since I usually do these on location year to year and I can't spend hours waiting for the size to dry. This year is a new batch of awards and I have a little leeway with time, but I will have to go to the club and finish the rest of the awards later next month. Previous awards that I have done (with the same board supplier) I haven't had an issue with until now. I'll have to experiment with removing the mask right after the size is applied... I'm always leery of something getting smudged doing that!

 

[Gino]

Yes, it's a professional finish. There doesn't seem to be any overspray at all - I have five in the shop at the moment and they appear exactly the same (except for the wood, of course). I prefer to gild with the frisket in place since I usually do these on location year to year and I can't spend hours waiting for the size to dry. This year is a new batch of awards and I have a little leeway with time, but I will have to go to the club and finish the rest of the awards later next month. Previous awards that I have done (with the same board supplier) I haven't had an issue with until now. I'll have to experiment with removing the mask right after the size is applied... I'm always leery of something getting smudged doing that!

Okay, I would venture to say, that's your problem. Unless you have 15, 20 years or do these routinely week after week.... you've been lucky not to have a problem up til now. Anytime you use frisket/stencil material you never let paint, size or anything drying go until it's almost dry. With sizing, it must be next to dry in order to gild. The size, paint or whatever dries to the frisket and the background at the same time and whichever has the least resistance is going to let go and it usually tears zig-zaggy all around.

 

[letterman7]

well.... I've been doing these type signs this way for near 15 years and rarely had a problem. I'll try letting the size sit enough to start to set then pull the mask and gild. We'll see what happens!

 

[Billct2]

You could try gently scrubbing with a really old scotchbrite pad after applying the mask, blow then wipe clean, then size.
I also pull the mask while the size is wet. I have appiled an egg size first to prevent the leaf sticking, but that wouldn't work if the plaques are hanging on a wall.
And finally, but what I would do first, is ask the manufacturer if they may know why there's an issue/

 

[Si Allen]

Is it possible that they added silicone to the lacquer?

 

[letterman7]

That's what I had thought, Si. I did talk with the people who made them and they insisted it was simply the catalyzed lacquer. They didn't seem to have a clue what the issue might be... they are a commercial wood repair/refinish outfit and make stuff to be basically mar-resistant.

 

[TammieH]

Did you speak with Sherwin Williams? If its a "catalyzed" lacquer good chance nothing will adhere unless you scuff the surface as per Billct2

 

[TammieH]

Just to reiterate...Post Catalyzed lacquers must be scuff sanded between coats to ensure proper adhesion. I found this on Goudey's website, could not find info on Sherwin-Williams but I assume they are similar.

http://www.goudeymfg.com/index.php/lacquers/pre-and-post-catalyzed-lacquers.html

Good Luck!!

 

[signmeup]

Is it possible one of the club people waxed the plaques? Cleaning the plaque with mineral spirits will remove wax/grease and won't hurt anything...

I routinely mask, size, gild... then peel my lettering. I don't like messing with gold that has stuck to my un-sized background. (I use water based top coats)

 

[letterman7]

No, these are brand new from the manufacturer, so no chance of the club having cleaned or waxed them. The old ones, however, do have a heavy coating of cigarette smoke, so those are always fun to clean and gild. Tammie might be on to something, just as Bill stated. I'm not quite sure how I'd scuff the copy without screwing up the mask, but might be worth a test on something similar. Thanks for the ideas, folks... keep 'em coming!

 

[signmeup]

TSP might do the trick.