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Gray... ugh....

i1 Match profile creation software does not provide much in the area of adjusting GCR values. It only offers two preset conditions, Inkjet 260 and Inkjet 400.

The other potential option would be to edit the ICC to tune grayscale for specific lighting conditions, using i1Match's Profile Editing function or the full blown Profile Editor (now that I think about it, if you have Gretag Profile Editor, you should use Profile Maker and follow Rooster's suggestions above).
 

Rooster

New Member
I should expand upon my earlier comments a little bit for clarification. For those not familiar with profiling or moderately advanced color theory.

Most all inks experience some form of metamarism. Normally the color shift is too slight to really notice. A minor shift in hue in a saturated red is still a saturated red after all. The areas where metamarism are most visibly apparent are when you make up grays using the CMY inks. It is a delicate balance to take three primaries and turn them into a neutral shade of gray. Any variance will impact the neutrality and show up as a color "cast". Either greenish, warmish (red), or cool (blue).

Normally the profiles we use in our inkjets use "Gray Component Replacement" (GCR) to some degree. GCR is where you use black ink to make up the grays in your image. But why wouldn't you use black to make up all the grays in the image you might be asking yourself? The reason(s) are that you simply don't get the smoothness in tone and transition, nor the same density and "pop" as you do with the preferred method of using CMY to create the neutral tones. Plus there's the always present dots that we have for years been trying to eliminate visually in the quest to mimic the continuous tone of a true photographic process. CYM dots have less contrast against a white background than a black dot does. Therefor they appear smoother on the sheet.

The use of light cyan and light magenta are simply a way of reducing the contrast of the dots against the sheet even further. We don't use a light yellow because there's so little to be gained from the additional channel in smoothing the image as yellow has such little contrast against white to begin with. As can be seen in the world of aqueous inkjets the addition of a light black, and in some cases light, light blacks (and beyond) allow us to use more GCR lower down the range without increasing the visibility of the dots. Mimaki, I believe, is the first to implement this with their JV5 series printers and an available solvent light black inkset.

Of course this whole visible dot issue seems pointless for a sign printer where most prints are viewed from distances that obscure the dots anyhow. But if you were say producing small decals where the customer is viewing them close up it does become an issue. Smoother dots appear more like a true spot color. The other more useful benefits of GCR, where they intersect with with the signage industry. Are that it makes neutrals easier to print consistently with a device that isn't custom profiled, as the CMY balance become less critical. Or the topic of this thread where it's used to minimize the effects of metamarism.

Even with the addition of light black inks there will still be the need to use CMY as part of the gray component. The increased density across the tonal range is visually superior to the alternative of using a single ink to produce grays. Compare a completely neutral black and white image printed using black only to one that has been generated from an RGB file and printed using CMYK and you can easily see how much more contrast is apparent in the image. It simply "pops" by comparison. However, the addition of a true neutral component to this mix allows the reduction of the CMY portion and minimizes the metamarism in a correctly profiled and printed image, as well as making a less accurately profiled machine able to print a neutral tone with less color casts should the CMY balance be slightly off. The trade off at the moment is an increase in graininess due to the use of the black dots lower down the tonal range. Something that may not even be an issue for some here. For others it may create certain solids that appear too grainy to be salable.

The answer for those of us who stress over accurate color and create our own profiles, is as easy as using the same target data to create two different profiles. One using less GCR for a smoother image, and another using more GCR for better neutrality under different lighting conditions. It adds less than 5 minutes to the profiling process and gives you the flexibility to create a range of products that will keep everybody happy. Although the true answer lies in the technology of expanded inksets that include lighter neutral inks. Something to consider when making your next printer purchase, if any of this lengthy diatribe has struck a chord with you.
 

Tovis

New Member
Curious too, when CMY is used to make a gray and M fades overtime does it result in a greenish cast over time or do all three fade equally over time?

I remember in college dipping into Albumen Printing, (one of the original photographic processes), and found out that we printed the negative in color with a curve (usually red) because printing only in black doesn't create that much gradation and looks pixilated.

Rooster, love your thesis on metamarism learned a lot from it!
 

Bigdawg

Just Me
I can answer that... it does get a greenish cast over time...

and I am still no where :-(

don't seem to have the profile editor so it's back to the drawing board to make a new profile (which i REALLY don't have time for) and adjust the GCR there...
 

Rooster

New Member
Curious too, when CMY is used to make a gray and M fades overtime does it result in a greenish cast over time or do all three fade equally over time?

The way inks are rated is based on what's called "noticeable fading". Meaning where one ink has faded more than the others and caused a noticeable color shift. One thing people don't often take into consideration is that if the colors fade in unison they can allow for an up to (I think) 35% in shift in overall density (all colors fading together). So long as the colors remain balanced. You can lose up to a third of the density in the original before the rating system says it's "faded"

Yes, when the magenta fades before the others it will cause a greenish cast. Then a very cyan cast as it tends to be the last of the primaries to fade.

Check out http://www.wilhelm-research.com/ for more info on light fast ratings and testing procedures.
 

eye4clr

New Member
The easiest way to cure this to to rebuild the existing profile to use less GCR. This will build your neutral using more black than cmy to make up the neutral colors.

Great info you're sharing on color! But doesn't using less GCR balance in more CMY relative to K? GCR is after all Grey Component Replacement, so cranking up the GRC balances more K relative to CMY make the neutral colors more stable under different lighting and fading conditions.
 

Rooster

New Member
Great info you're sharing on color! But doesn't using less GCR balance in more CMY relative to K? GCR is after all Grey Component Replacement, so cranking up the GRC balances more K relative to CMY make the neutral colors more stable under different lighting and fading conditions.

Yes I often get the "R's" mixed up between Gray Component Replacement and Under Color Removal (GCR/UCR). My bad on the phrasing.
 

Bigdawg

Just Me
Just to update this...

got a terrific gray making some adjustment to the actual color... it looked almost red-tinted inside but beautiful gray in natural sunlight...

Customer was very happy...

until he pulled his car out and the "black" backend - was a beautiful emerald green in the bright sunlight...

so we have to rewrap... working on that issue as we speak.
 

Gene@mpls

New Member
Great to 'see' you- eye4clr- on this board, I hadn't noticed you before. I have
learned a lot about color management from you in the past- and need a
lot more learnin'. Gene
 

eye4clr

New Member
Hi Gene!

I have a feeling you're doing better than you suggest.

I haven't been on the forums since PrintingDigital.net shut down. Thought i might get back in the information loop. God knows i can use help with my printer repair and maintenance at times.

Bigdawg - sorry to hear about your blacks. If you're tweaking the file, change the black to have 100%K as a foundation, then adjust the color with the remaining CMY. Sounds like you have excess Y and not enough M in your blacks (very common with canned profiles).
 

Matt-Tastic

New Member
you can also remove all input color correction, as this will level the playing field for your greys and hopefully neutralize your grey. it may also effect some out of gamut colors, but if its mostly grey, you'll be fine.

also, i know mimaki's black ink has a slight green tint to it (its the pigment they use) and maybe roland has a similar issue. you only notice it in very light greys. GCR is the way to go, but its not something you can correct without at least relinearizing, typically.
 

Bigdawg

Just Me
Thanks eye4clr... I'm using a profile that we created in-house... something is going on with this particular file... and the black was pulled from the photograph and is actually carrying enough magenta that I was worried about it. Not too much yellow in it but it keeps popping up that way.

Did some test removing the color correction and it throws the logo colors off whack.

I am rebuilding the file in case something weird has gone on with it when I went from RGB to CMYK for the grays - I think I can get it nailed in RGB (which is usually what I print from photoshop on for best color) after the tweaking... and if not I'll be reprofiling the media by Friday.

Have NEVER had this problems like this with blacks before.
 

eye4clr

New Member
What is the color mix in the file for black?

If you've made the output profile you should be getting color pretty close to what is in the file.
 
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