Guides / Walkthroughs on Routing Printed images with out a Camera alignment System

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

My Brother and I are looking at bringing in a CNC to stop bleeding on our outsourcing projects. We currently spend north of $150,000/year on outsource routing and have more and more projects everyday that the time frames are starting to cause issues.

I have ran CNCs in the past, Gerber Sabre and a Few Mach 3 based machines, but we have always cut then mounted. In order to reduce labor we'd like to mount then cut when we get our machine. The machines we are looking at are north of $60k for a camera system, or sub $30k without. We'd like to go the lower cost route to start since we can pay cash with our reserves and build more on that side of the business before we get in to the expensive machines.

So, in order to do so, we'd need to brush up on our skills for cutting printed images without an alignment system. Does anyone have any good guides, videos, or tips for this?

 

[Zendavor Signs]

My Brother and I are looking at bringing in a CNC to stop bleeding on our outsourcing projects. We currently spend north of $150,000/year on outsource routing and have more and more projects everyday that the time frames are starting to cause issues.

I have ran CNCs in the past, Gerber Sabre and a Few Mach 3 based machines, but we have always cut then mounted. In order to reduce labor we'd like to mount then cut when we get our machine. The machines we are looking at are north of $60k for a camera system, or sub $30k without. We'd like to go the lower cost route to start since we can pay cash with our reserves and build more on that side of the business before we get in to the expensive machines.

So, in order to do so, we'd need to brush up on our skills for cutting printed images without an alignment system. Does anyone have any good guides, videos, or tips for this?

Our i-cut system died and is no longer supported, so we are in the same boat. We fit all objects in, say a 48x96 box, then register the router head to the lower left corner of the sheet. It's not perfect, but pretty good for most work. File setup is a pain for lots of pieces. Almost always is flatbed printed stuff. If you are mounting laminated prints, then you are going to get all kinds of skewing and stretching. This system (the manual hard way) will not work well with laminated prints. Camera registration is likely not adding $30k. Multicam's system is $10-$15k I believe. At $60k you are probably getting a pretty beefy router. I would just hold off a little longer so you can purchase the machine you need all in 1 shot.

This looks like a nice unit to get routing ability on the cheap with no camera reg:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Multi-Cam-C...945261?hash=item1eb22765ad:g:xBAAAOSwtJZXUyeK

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

Our i-cut system died and is no longer supported, so we are in the same boat. We fit all objects in, say a 48x96 box, then register the router head to the lower left corner of the sheet. It's not perfect, but pretty good for most work. File setup is a pain for lots of pieces. Almost always is flatbed printed stuff. If you are mounting laminated prints, then you are going to get all kinds of skewing and stretching. This system (the manual hard way) will not work well with laminated prints. Camera registration is likely not adding $30k. Multicam's system is $10-$15k I believe. At $60k you are probably getting a pretty beefy router. I would just hold off a little longer so you can purchase the machine you need all in 1 shot.

This looks like a nice unit to get routing ability on the cheap with no camera reg:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Multi-Cam-C...945261?hash=item1eb22765ad:g:xBAAAOSwtJZXUyeK

The units with camera systems all start at $59K+ but I can get basic tables for Under $30k with similar features just no cameras. We are looking at Laguna Tools, the Swift 5' x 10' with Vacuum, QuickChange collet, and extended height gantry is $28k delivered. To get the Camera system on the swift we have to switch to the Swift MT and the base price jumps to $60k.

The skewing is a non issue for us as we use an applicator and we can put 4 corner marks and the line up on all four corners when installed (so its no different than flatbed other than the vinyl layer)

 

[rossmosh]

My guess is you're going to be best off cutting and then mounting. The issue with cutting without a camera is the build up of error. Let's say you have a 4x8 sheet with 24 items on it. Now imagine how if the material is just slightly out of square, the mount is slightly off, and your mounting on the table is just off every so slightly. The accumulative error can result in 1/8" off pretty easily. To get it right on the money takes quite a bit of extra time and at that point, you have to really think if it's worth it.

Also, the Laguna machine is a Chinese made machine with a huge markup. Be careful. I'm not sure it would even make my list if I was looking to spend $30k on a CNC machine.

 

[rjssigns]

Did you check into LIMAC?

IIRC they're a merchant member.

Artbot may be a wealth of information on the topic too.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

I did check with LIMAC... it's the same thing, to get he camera their base price jumps to $50k according to the sales person I was conferring with.

I get the reasons behind the camera, but we want to start where we can afford to pay cash and grow to the more expensive tables. I guess we will have to figure this one out.

 

[Jester1167]

My last shop had a Multicam 3000 (awesome router) and we routed an "L" shape into the MDF table that represented 0 on the "X" axis and 0 on the "Y". We used this to square the sheets with the router. We also used the long part of the "L" for tiling when we had to route out 12' aluminum faces on our 8' router.

We printed an "L" shape on our prints and trimmed the print to the center of the hairline and used that to align with the edge/corner of the substrate. So now you have a way to align the print to the substrate and the substrate to the router table. Next you have to have a way to register home on your print/substrate/router and computer. Use the hairline "L" shape without a tool path and align it to 0,0 in your software. Now with a sharp engraving bit you can used the point to find the 0,0 corner on your material. Then switch to your routing bit of choice, tool path accordingly and route.

If registration is critical you can create smaller section with their own home "L" on each sheet and reset home for better accuracy. If your doing the same file over and over all you have to do is register the new home and repeat the last job. The file show below might help make sense of it all.

One of our operators liked to use circles for registration marks instead of an "L" shape. If he was using an 1/8" bit he would set up his files with 1/8" circles. One at 0,0 one at the extreme end of the "X" and "Y" axis. It would help him center his bit in the circle without using the pointed engraving bit requiring a bit change.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

My last shop had a Multicam 3000 (awesome router) and we routed an "L" shape into the MDF table that represented 0 on the "X" axis and 0 on the "Y". We used this to square the sheets with the router. We also used the long part of the "L" for tiling when we had to route out 12' aluminum faces on our 8' router.

We printed an "L" shape on our prints and trimmed the print to the center of the hairline and used that to align with the edge/corner of the substrate. So now you have a way to align the print to the substrate and the substrate to the router table. Next you have to have a way to register home on your print/substrate/router and computer. Use the hairline "L" shape without a tool path and align it to 0,0 in your software. Now with a sharp engraving bit you can used the point to find the 0,0 corner on your material. Then switch to your routing bit of choice, tool path accordingly and route.

If registration is critical you can create smaller section with their own home "L" on each sheet and reset home for better accuracy. If your doing the same file over and over all you have to do is register the new home and repeat the last job. The file show below might help make sense of it all.

One of our operators liked to use circles for registration marks instead of an "L" shape. If he was using an 1/8" bit he would set up his files with 1/8" circles. One at 0,0 one at the extreme end of the "X" and "Y" axis. It would help him center his bit in the circle without using the pointed engraving bit requiring a bit change.

View attachment 114822

That's what I was looking for, looks totally straight forward too, Thank You!

Did you guys leave a margin on your substrates? Also do you leave the line on the sheet or is that to align the edge only?

 

[Jester1167]

Like others have said, accuracy can vary due to a whole host of factors so design in lots of wiggle room, get the camera, or sub it out. It can be frustrating figuring out why the registration jumps from sheet to sheet. If your staff has trouble with consistency and quality control, forget about it...

A few of the FACTORS;

Printers can lengthen or shorten prints based on the scan interlace.
Vinyl shrinks over time and stretches during installation.
Potential for skew in the print and or install.

Your margin of error will increase as you get further from 0,0 on the "X" axis and the "Y" axis and the extreme "X","Y" combo will be compounded. If your staff is consistent, you can adjust your files on the fly to make up for some of the factors. Just beware, if I remember correctly, your adjustment are backwards from what you think...

It can be done and if your going to go this route don't forget to add a margin of waste to your jobs. Especially the larger ones or your will loose your shirt...

 

[Jester1167]

That's what I was looking for, looks totally straight forward too, Thank You!

Did you guys leave a margin on your substrates?
Margins were built into the files and prints and not used on the substrate. The "L" shape on the print was trimed to the center of the hairline and installed on the edge of the substrate. The edge of the substrate and your print rarely line up perfectly square. We used the longest side of the substrate for alignment and used the absolute corner as the 0,0

Also do you leave the line on the sheet or is that to align the edge only?
If you align the print with the edge of the sheet, the edge of the sheet becomes the alignment point. The routed edge of the "L" on your routers sacrificial MDF spoil board is permanently routed in. Another option is to drill 2 holes along the "X" and 2 along the "Y" axis for removable dowel. You could then save your operator time aligning the sheets, just butt the substrate lightly to the dowels, and hit start, start on a Multicam to repeat the last file.

Just make sure the dowels don't interfere with the foot or router in any way or remove them before you start routing. The only problem is that the MDF can't take a lot of abuse so hitting the dowels repeatable and or removing them will loosen/damage the holes

 

[StarSign]

We run a Gerber 408 and print/cut 3-5 jobs a week. My guy who runs the router has set up a great system and works with the designers if there are potential problems. It works great for us.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

We run a Gerber 408 and print/cut 3-5 jobs a week. My guy who runs the router has set up a great system and works with the designers if there are potential problems. It works great for us.

Are you guys using a laser alignment system?

 

[Nicedeal]

Digging up an old thread here.. Jester1167, do you have any pictures of this process? I'm in the same boat here. Looking to purchase my first CNC-router, and cut dibond & magnetic with a drag-knife. All prints are mounted using a rollsroller, so alignment on the material shouldn't be too much of an issue.