Has anyone ever heard of pricing like this!?

[WB]

So, long story short I've partnered up with another sign shop in town, the 2 girls that were here doing the pricing and estimating are gone and I'm here trying to get a hold of a decent pricing structure for the business. I do everything of SQ Ft. that's the way I've always done it.

I find a lot of previous jobs were very under priced and I come to find out that for the majority of the jobs they were adding the LENGTH + the WIDTH and that was the price for decals. Printed and laminated or just straight vinyl cut L+W and that's your price.

I've never heard of that before. Has anyone else?

 

[White Haus]

So a 12" x 12" decal would be $24? If that's the case I'm not sure how you could lose money charging that much!

Unless I'm missing something....

 

[StarSign]

Maybe they were only charging .10 per inch

 

[kcollinsdesign]

Silly. That means a 4'x4' (16 sq. ft.) would be 96, and a 1' x 16' (16 sq. ft.) would be 204 (I purposely left out the denomination because that wasn't included in the OP).
Square foot pricing can be part of a pricing methodology, but adjustments must be made for the total amount of material used and the time spent producing the job. For example, I would never charge $2/sq.ft. for a 1' x 4' banner ($8.00), but I might charge $2/sq.ft. for a 5' x 10' banner ($100.00).
Chances are, however, that I would have a hard time getting $100 for a 5' x 10' banner when the customer can buy one online for $50.00 plus $15 shipping!

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

Silly. That means a 4'x4' (16 sq. ft.) would be 96, and a 1' x 16' (16 sq. ft.) would be 204 (I purposely left out the denomination because that wasn't included in the OP).
Square foot pricing can be part of a pricing methodology, but adjustments must be made for the total amount of material used and the time spent producing the job. For example, I would never charge $2/sq.ft. for a 1' x 4' banner ($8.00), but I might charge $2/sq.ft. for a 5' x 10' banner ($100.00).
Chances are, however, that I would have a hard time getting $100 for a 5' x 10' banner when the customer can buy one online for $50.00 plus $15 shipping!

Um that totally makes sense. A 4x4 banner consumes at most 18sqft but a 1x16 consumes 3 to 4 times that due to waste unless you are printing on a 5 meter press.

So if you care about your profit margin $96 vs $204 makes sense.

 

[kcollinsdesign]

Um that totally makes sense. A 4x4 banner consumes at most 18sqft but a 1x16 consumes 3 to 4 times that due to waste unless you are printing on a 5 meter press.

So if you care about your profit margin $96 vs $204 makes sense.

I can't afford to print my own banners. Both of those banners, 13oz. reinforced vinyl, hemmed and grommeted, would cost me less than $16 each (drop shipped to the customer – they are delighted to pay the shipping because it saves them the drive time). If I'm putting them up, I'll add the shipping cost to the total bill.

 

[WB]

Silly. That means a 4'x4' (16 sq. ft.) would be 96, and a 1' x 16' (16 sq. ft.) would be 204 (I purposely left out the denomination because that wasn't included in the OP).
Square foot pricing can be part of a pricing methodology, but adjustments must be made for the total amount of material used and the time spent producing the job. For example, I would never charge $2/sq.ft. for a 1' x 4' banner ($8.00), but I might charge $2/sq.ft. for a 5' x 10' banner ($100.00).
Chances are, however, that I would have a hard time getting $100 for a 5' x 10' banner when the customer can buy one online for $50.00 plus $15 shipping!

I don't print alot of banners but if prices were that low around here I'd just close the doors. I just printed 6 @ 4' x 8' mesh banners with reinforced edges and grommets for $220 each

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

I can't afford to print my own banners. Both of those banners, 13oz. reinforced vinyl, hemmed and grommeted, would cost me less than $16 each (drop shipped to the customer – they are delighted to pay the shipping because it saves them the drive time). If I'm putting them up, I'll add the shipping cost to the total bill.

Well that's the problem, you the broker are dictating pricing structures to the producer who incurs all the risk and cost. If your vendor sells to you at $1/sqft with no regard to material utilization they clearly have a workload that allows them to gang nest.

The reality is us producers incur way more cost on a 1x16 vs a 4x4 in most cases (reversed if talking about 5m printing), so naturally if you run your company with Margins in mind a 1x16 will cost more than a 4x4 so you should charge more.

And the argument that your clients can buy the banners cheaper online means you feel you don't provide any value and the products you sell are a commodity. If you are targeting a client base that can and will replace you with a do it yourself service online, you are targeting the wrong client's.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

Am I the only one here that likes making banners? Your price is what it is, there will always be someone cheaper and always someone more expensive. If your only concern and competitive advantage is pricing then you will likely build your business around customers with the same mentality. That's not a good place to be.

 

[bob]

MAX=what you'd charge for a 1 sq ft job.
MIN= the least amount per sq ft that you'd work for.
SIZE= sq ft of job, that's length*width in feet.

then (MAX-MIN)+MIN*SIZE+materials*markup+substrate*markup+whatever

This gives a price that becomes lower per sq ft the large the job. Works for me and has been for many years.

 

[kcollinsdesign]

I don't print alot of banners but if prices were that low around here I'd just close the doors. I just printed 6 @ 4' x 8' mesh banners with reinforced edges and grommets for $220 each

I would not be able to get a nickel more than $150.00 each. I have been doing this since the '70s and I know exactly what everybody else charges.
There are some that add their value-added services to their over-all price, and are charging in the range of $5 – $6 a sq. ft. for regular 13oz. vinyl banners with hems and grommets. I prefer to keep art charges seperate from fabrication charges. My clients are not paying me for a commodity they can get anywhere, but for design and installation services that are unique to our business.
There's two ways to make it in the custom, small shop side of this business: have killer design chops and a great book, or make a considerable investment in service vehicles and installation and service personnel. Small scale, in-house production will at best only support your other profit centers, and at worse drive you to the poor house!

 

[kcollinsdesign]

Well that's the problem, you the broker are dictating pricing structures to the producer who incurs all the risk and cost. If your vendor sells to you at $1/sqft with no regard to material utilization they clearly have a workload that allows them to gang nest.

The reality is us producers incur way more cost on a 1x16 vs a 4x4 in most cases (reversed if talking about 5m printing), so naturally if you run your company with Margins in mind a 1x16 will cost more than a 4x4 so you should charge more.

And the argument that your clients can buy the banners cheaper online means you feel you don't provide any value and the products you sell are a commodity. If you are targeting a client base that can and will replace you with a do it yourself service online, you are targeting the wrong client's.

Our customers come to us for our design, installation, and service skills. I supply signs at the best price I can for them, and they gladly pay those competitive prices (they have already looked up the price on the internet, so they already know what the prices are). We charge a bit more than most shops for design (we have a long list of satisfied clients that goes back over 4 decades), and charge prevailing wage for installation and service. It's design and service where we make most of our profits.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

Our customers come to us for our design, installation, and service skills. I supply signs at the best price I can for them, and they gladly pay those competitive prices (they have already looked up the price on the internet, so they already know what the prices are). We charge a bit more than most shops for design (we have a long list of satisfied clients that goes back over 4 decades), and charge prevailing wage for installation and service. It's design and service where we make most of our profits.

By you selling prints to your customers in a "pass-through" fashion "because they can get it cheaper online" hurts everyone in this industry. It signifies the commoditization of everything that we do because you only respect the value of what you do.

The reality is you only have things to design because your client needs printed products you don't produce. By saying hey, I buy it for this so I'll give it to you for that price is what's going to kill small shops. It turns in to a market expectation to work for nothing.

Now I don't have decades of experience like you, but I can see how you are ushering the amazonification of our industry because it suits your model without regard to the industry as a whole. I'm implore you to raise your prices to market level, not internet commerce levels.

 

[David Snyder]

So, long story short I've partnered up with another sign shop in town, the 2 girls that were here doing the pricing and estimating are gone and I'm here trying to get a hold of a decent pricing structure for the business. I do everything of SQ Ft. that's the way I've always done it.

I find a lot of previous jobs were very under priced and I come to find out that for the majority of the jobs they were adding the LENGTH + the WIDTH and that was the price for decals. Printed and laminated or just straight vinyl cut L+W and that's your price.

I've never heard of that before. Has anyone else?

Having read only your post and none of the other comments that may or may not agree with me, you have to multiply the length with the width. Just sayin'

 

[kcollinsdesign]

By you selling prints to your customers in a "pass-through" fashion "because they can get it cheaper online" hurts everyone in this industry. It signifies the commoditization of everything that we do because you only respect the value of what you do.

The reality is you only have things to design because your client needs printed products you don't produce. By saying hey, I buy it for this so I'll give it to you for that price is what's going to kill small shops. It turns in to a market expectation to work for nothing.

Now I don't have decades of experience like you, but I can see how you are ushering the amazonification of our industry because it suits your model without regard to the industry as a whole. I'm implore you to raise your prices to market level, not internet commerce levels.

I am at market levels. The only difference is that my overhead is lower and my net profits are higher.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

I am at market levels. The only difference is that my overhead is lower and my net profits are higher.

You are not at market levels if you are selling 5x10 banners for $50, you are contributing to the decline of our market. I was just in Chicagoland area (Roselle, Plainfield, and Wauconda) for a project and speaking with shops we are partnering with... I know that market rates are 4x to 5x what you are saying... You are just competing with online sellers, which is not your market.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

You are not at market levels if you are selling 5x10 banners for $50, you are contributing to the decline of our market. I was just in Chicagoland area (Roselle, Plainfield, and Wauconda) for a project and speaking with shops we are partnering with... I know that market rates are 4x to 5x what you are saying... You are just competing with online sellers, which is not your market.

Even online stuff isn't all that cheap. People probably throw out random prices to him and he takes it as the gospel. Maybe a $50 premade 1 color banner , like grand opening, as a loss leader? Or a starting price, then add grommets, hem, print, multiple colors etc. Nobody is working for nothing, even the trade wholesalers aren't "cheap."

 

[Stacey K]

Seriously, most customers cannot even provide a decent a file of their logo, how will these people create a nice looking banner on VistaPrint? "I can get it cheaper online" - THEN DO IT. And after you spend 3 hours trying to figure out how to upload your logo, etc...don't complain to me about it.

I do have some saavy customers that do a nice job ordering their own things online but they come to me for things they can't. I'm fine with that!

A bar owner will call me and say "I found some something online can you order it for me with my logo?" - I charge for my time and 30%, depending how large the order is might be a little less than 30% He's totally fine with it because he doesn't know how to do it and does not want to mess around with it. Kind of an easy customer...no legwork at all LOL

You have to consider that the time the customer spends uploading and ordering is the amount they save vs. going to you. Someone needs to be paid for that time designing, ordering, unpacking the box, etc. You are losing out on a lot of labor if you aren't taking that into consideration.

Notarealsignguy I love doing banners too...there's a big margin on them even for me who orders them out LOL

 

[Pauly]

Pricing up printing in my opinion is one of the more difficult product to price. There are so many variables. I've spent a long time creating a formula that works for us and that works online.

But one thing that i've learnt, is never try to make your pricing reflect other companies. You can use other companies for ballpark pricing, but the thing is, you don't know what equipment they run and what production capabilities they have.
Let's look at it this way:
Company A, they run an entry level roland which produces banners, stickers, posters, and a bunch of other stuff. They charge a 5x10 banner for $200.
Company B, they run a Durst 312R. they produce 90% banners and have a banner finishing line. They charge $50 for a 5x10.

Company A will never be able to compete with Company b due to the production volume company B has. Company A will produce 1x banner, while Company B will produce 8x.

Company A may also do the artwork where Company B does not.

 

[kcollinsdesign]

You are not at market levels if you are selling 5x10 banners for $50, you are contributing to the decline of our market. I was just in Chicagoland area (Roselle, Plainfield, and Wauconda) for a project and speaking with shops we are partnering with... I know that market rates are 4x to 5x what you are saying... You are just competing with online sellers, which is not your market.

5 x 10 for $100.00 plus shipping plus added tax (if required). I might discount that a bit for volume customers or if part of a bigger project. Any design work is an extra charge (minimum $35) and installation is priced at market rates (usually $95.00/hour plus equipment charges, but that's going up). Add a $95 permit secural fee if applicable (the client will need to pay for the permit as well, which I usually pass along at cost).
I will likely end up charging this customer $350.00+ plus for this job (installed with permit).
Still, the banner is only $100.00. The rest of the cost is value-added service.
I guess I look at pricing from the perspective of a project manager/graphic designer. We do not print and do the very minimum production and fabrication, preferring to sub-contract that work so we can concentrate on our core strengths. I suppose you could build some of those costs into a higher "sq.ft." price, but I find it easier using a pricing methodology I am familiar with and can account better for project variables. If you take my final project price, and break it down to 50 sq. ft., then my price is $7 a square foot!