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Have never seen this happen.................

LCS

New Member
Whenever we do a project with gray in it we convert them to Grayscale before print. haven't really had an issue yet but we sure know when we forget to convert them! I attached a couple of the fleet wraps that we did using gray. We only use 3M IJ-18 CV3
 

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Gino

Premium Subscriber
common issue. the UV in the wrap lam does that.


we avoid it by de-saturate the grey in Photoshop to assure there's only black in there.


No, not so. I can take the printed material outside, before laminating it and it turns green as I approach the front door. As I go outside, it totally turns to green right before your very yes. It's almost like the darned ink has phosphorous in it. It has nothing to do with the laminate, however, the laminate does make it a little shinier/glossier.

I can't get a picture to show you, because outside or inside, it always appears the grey it's supposed to be in a photo. Stranger things have happened, but not lately.

Monday, if I think of it, I'm gonna print to several vinyls and banner materials and see if it does it 100% down the pike. :wink:

After yesterday, we finally had a breather after a few weeks of balls to the walls projects........ but, it starts all over again Monday.
 

HulkSmash

New Member
if it isn't the lam, as mentioned above convert the grey areas to grey scale to get rid of all other color attributes.
 
if it isn't the lam, as mentioned above convert the grey areas to grey scale to get rid of all other color attributes.

This alone will not solve the problem. The grays are being re-interpreted in the RIP, and will still print with all 4 colors of ink in the gray. The only ways to stop this from occurring is:

a) to build CMYK-based files, and turn off Color Management in your RIP. This will cause other issues.
b) Use a proprietary spot color system such as Roland Color System, which bypasses an ICC-based workflow, but cant be used in raster data sets.
 

HulkSmash

New Member
This alone will not solve the problem. The grays are being re-interpreted in the RIP, and will still print with all 4 colors of ink in the gray. The only ways to stop this from occurring is:

a) to build CMYK-based files, and turn off Color Management in your RIP. This will cause other issues.
b) Use a proprietary spot color system such as Roland Color System, which bypasses an ICC-based workflow, but cant be used in raster data sets.

If you have a good rip, and know how to use it properly, you can do what i said with no issue.
 

HulkSmash

New Member
If I recall, you are using a good RIP (Caldera) and you are also building custom profiles. That combination goes a long,long way toward alleviating this issue.


Um yeah, that's my point. You said rips will use 4 color. I'm saying not if you know how to use it. This discussion wasn't about me, What rip does GINO have.
 

Letterbox Mike

New Member
Gino, are you using a canned profile or custom one made in house?

I'd be shocked it this wasn't a profile/color management problem entirely. Grays are hard to print because your RIP sees that color and reinterprets the CMYK values so it prints what it thinks you're expecting (that's an extreme oversimplification). Poor quality profiles (and often most canned profiles downloaded from a media manufacturer) tend to shove colors a little too far one way or the other in hopes of delivering "pleasant" colors. This is probably never noticed on most spot colors or photographic images because they are still color. But with gray, your eye very easily detects when it has a color cast and loses neutrality.

Your printer has to print the gray as a combination of CMYK ink, and a poor profile is simply adding too much of one or more colors in an attempt to neutralize or balance those process colors into a pleasing gray, which results in usually a green or magenta color cast.

The only way to eliminate the issue is with a better profile unfortunately. You can minimize it somewhat with moving away from a canned profile by manually tweaking colors in your file and RIP until you squeeze out a gray you can live with, but that's highly inefficient, expensive, and not repeatable. Assuming your file is built properly with a correct neutral gray color specified, a good profile will do its job.

On the subject of the file, for a profile to print a neutral gray, you must give it a file with neutral gray. Make sure you numbers are correct, ALWAYS check the numbers. If you're designing in CMYK and you're shooting for gray and on screen it looks goo but your numbers are something like 36/42/45/67 that is not neutral. In CMYK, you should never have any cyan , magenta, or yellow in the mix. 0/0/0/50 is neutral gray an a good profile will interpret and print that accurately. For RGB, gray is just as easy, contrary to what a lot of people believe, all 3 values have to be the same. So 150/139/161 make look OK on screen but it is not balanced and neutral. 140/140/140 is neutral gray and again a good profile will render that as such.

And don't forget your icc profiles and rendering intents in the file, that will affect it as well, although not as drastically. If the file is set to relative colorimetric with the sRGB profile and your profile is set to absolute colorimetric with the Apple RGB profile the RIP will tweak colors a little off target.

Lastly, as has already been discussed, laminate can shift the color. Although with very good profiles that print neutral grays accurately, the shift is minimal, if noticeable at all. If the laminate has a yellow tint and the gray printed with a little excess cyan (which can look deceivingly neutral on its own, especially indoors under cooler colored fluorescent lighting), the laminate can add enough yellow to the mix to turn the gray green under the right lighting conditions (higher up the scale, or natural sunlight). Sometimes it's recommended to profile specific media with the laminate on it so the spectrophotometer can get a more accurate reading of the color through the laminate.

When all is said and done your problem more than likely boils down to color management. We (and a lot of other people) used to fight this daily and I dreaded any job that had gray in it. We finally in dated heavily in profiling and color management training, profiled to Gracol G7 spec and have not had a single gray issue since. Or any color issues. But it all starts with the file, if your colors are not accurately specified in the design, you're screwed from the get go. No color management system, regardless of how good, can correct mistakes the designer made because he didn't understand how to set up a proper neutral gray or rich black or blue.
 
Gino, are you using a canned profile or custom one made in house?

I'd be shocked it this wasn't a profile/color management problem entirely. Grays are hard to print because your RIP sees that color and reinterprets the CMYK values so it prints what it thinks you're expecting (that's an extreme oversimplification). Poor quality profiles (and often most canned profiles downloaded from a media manufacturer) tend to shove colors a little too far one way or the other in hopes of delivering "pleasant" colors. This is probably never noticed on most spot colors or photographic images because they are still color. But with gray, your eye very easily detects when it has a color cast and loses neutrality.

Your printer has to print the gray as a combination of CMYK ink, and a poor profile is simply adding too much of one or more colors in an attempt to neutralize or balance those process colors into a pleasing gray, which results in usually a green or magenta color cast.

The only way to eliminate the issue is with a better profile unfortunately. You can minimize it somewhat with moving away from a canned profile by manually tweaking colors in your file and RIP until you squeeze out a gray you can live with, but that's highly inefficient, expensive, and not repeatable. Assuming your file is built properly with a correct neutral gray color specified, a good profile will do its job.

On the subject of the file, for a profile to print a neutral gray, you must give it a file with neutral gray. Make sure you numbers are correct, ALWAYS check the numbers. If you're designing in CMYK and you're shooting for gray and on screen it looks goo but your numbers are something like 36/42/45/67 that is not neutral. In CMYK, you should never have any cyan , magenta, or yellow in the mix. 0/0/0/50 is neutral gray an a good profile will interpret and print that accurately. For RGB, gray is just as easy, contrary to what a lot of people believe, all 3 values have to be the same. So 150/139/161 make look OK on screen but it is not balanced and neutral. 140/140/140 is neutral gray and again a good profile will render that as such.

And don't forget your icc profiles and rendering intents in the file, that will affect it as well, although not as drastically. If the file is set to relative colorimetric with the sRGB profile and your profile is set to absolute colorimetric with the Apple RGB profile the RIP will tweak colors a little off target.

Lastly, as has already been discussed, laminate can shift the color. Although with very good profiles that print neutral grays accurately, the shift is minimal, if noticeable at all. If the laminate has a yellow tint and the gray printed with a little excess cyan (which can look deceivingly neutral on its own, especially indoors under cooler colored fluorescent lighting), the laminate can add enough yellow to the mix to turn the gray green under the right lighting conditions (higher up the scale, or natural sunlight). Sometimes it's recommended to profile specific media with the laminate on it so the spectrophotometer can get a more accurate reading of the color through the laminate.

When all is said and done your problem more than likely boils down to color management. We (and a lot of other people) used to fight this daily and I dreaded any job that had gray in it. We finally in dated heavily in profiling and color management training, profiled to Gracol G7 spec and have not had a single gray issue since. Or any color issues. But it all starts with the file, if your colors are not accurately specified in the design, you're screwed from the get go. No color management system, regardless of how good, can correct mistakes the designer made because he didn't understand how to set up a proper neutral gray or rich black or blue.

+1. Well said.
 

dypinc

New Member
Most good RIPs that I have encountered can be set to print a precentage of black as Inkjet black only at what ever percentage you want. Use a spot color (name it what ever you want) and edit it in the RIP to what percentage of inkjet black only. There is no reason you should be forced to use C-M-Y to get a gray.
 

Bigdawg

Just Me
This isn't a profile problem guys... it's a lighting problem. Don't have time to look through all my old posts, but I posted about this three or four years ago. I did a car that had gradient black in it and the blacks were all greenish in the sun.

It is the difference between your shop lighting and the natural light. I adjust for it when I print - adding some red to my profiles when I built them. We don't see it on all black- but if your cyan and yellow were heavier in the black build (which is common and the photoshop default, since magenta is such a strong color), it will happen damn near every time.

IMHO converting to grayscale is not an option when there is raster images involved with other colors...

Gino you can set up a natural lighting area in your shop or do what we do - print a sample, lam it and take it outdoors to verify before we print the whole wrap.

Edited to add: Since most of what we wrap is outdoors, I didn't set up 2 profiles for the 3M IJ180. But since we have the same issue with our Orajet products, I do have 2 profiles set up for that and when gray is involved, I use the one that has a darker red point.
 

Letterbox Mike

New Member
Technically you're right and wrong. It is a lighting issue but it's also a profile issue. What he's seeing is called metamorism. To oversimplify (again, sorry), his profile is not printing a neutral gray and the higher the color temperature of the viewing light (all the way up to sunlight) the more apparent that shift is. With a good profile that prints a neutral gray metamorism is minimized if not eliminated, the more out of balance the gray is the more the effects of metamorism are seen.
 
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