HDU Sign Failure: Any reason the installation would be the reason for the failure?

[rossmosh]

Long story short, I ordered a sign from a wholesaler. I wasn't supposed to install it, but ended up having to. The supplied brackets didn't fit so I had to rig some 4x4's as cross beams. The angle bracket came glued and screwed to the sign.

Personally, I wasn't a big fan of the way the mounting was designed. I left it up the manufacturer and they said this is their standard method.

The only place I could see my install causing the failure is the wood moving and twisting, which would put some additional forces against the sign. While a possibility, it seems a bit unlikely considering the sign failed as soon as we had some bad weather.

Just wanting to know some other thoughts.

Pictures: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1jropzNr9KwxbpyAf7K57gyFUsSYR5OIZ?usp=sharing

 

[Gino]

Did you only have a few screws from the back holding it in place ??

 

[weyandsign]

Can you show a pic that isn't on google drive?

 

[rossmosh]

Did you only have a few screws from the back holding it in place ??

The supplier did the angle bracket. It was glued and screwed. Not how I would have done it but they've been around 20+ years so I took their word it would hold up.

I would have mounted it completely differently. I would have used C-Channel to wrap around the cross beam which would have also allowed 2-3x the area for gluing and screwing. It would have also distributed forces differently.

Can you show a pic that isn't on google drive?

I can, but I figured it was easier considering there are several pics.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

Is that liquid nails? Also looks like the the raw aluminum had spray paint on it which didn't adhere. Maybe the wood swelled enough when it got wet to push against the sign.

 

[rossmosh]

Is that liquid nails? Also looks like the the raw aluminum had spray paint on it which didn't adhere. Maybe the wood swelled enough when it got wet to push against the sign.

I have no idea how the angle bracket was attached to the sign. I didn't have any involvement in that part. I installed the 4x4's and the brackets to mount that to the brick posts. It was supposed to use aluminum cross beams, but they didn't fit over the sign so I had to improvise at the last minute, a day before the revealing.

The wood swelling I doubt is the problem but it's not impossible. It's pressure treated and been installed for 4 months. It's also painted on 3 sides with the 4th, unpainted side, facing the sign. Water penetration should be relatively low all things considered. If anything, the wood 4x4's could have started wanting to twist as they dried out which might have exerted some forces on the sign. With that said, the sign has been fine up until we had semi-high winds with the storm heading up this direction from the south.

To me, this is a failure of the glue doing basically nothing. There was no bond between the bracket and sign. There is no glue residue on the angle bracket. The end result was only 5-6 screws were actually holding the bracket to the sign which clearly wasn't enough.

 

[Gino]

Even had that sign been cedar or redwood, we would've had the screws go all the way through. Foam will pull out much easier in most cases. Another reason, I don't like that stuff. However, with foam, you can bury a piece of wood inside, had they planned ahead better.

 

[rossmosh]

Is the wholesaler giving you kick back on helping with repairs? If their bonds failed, its on them. Those look like sheet metal screws instead of wood screws. Should be a simple matter to clean it up, touch it up, and re secure it, right?

They haven't replied back really yet. Just that they received the email, they're sorry, and reviewing it. I'm just looking for some feedback if I get push back from them or if I missed something. Maybe I missed something and I'll take it on the chin if I did.

Overall, repairing the situation should be pretty straight forward. I just have to decide how I want to fix the damaged corner. I'm thinking of routing an edge and then painting it. It should make it disappear.

Even had that sign been cedar or redwood, we would've had the screws go all the way through. Foam will pull out much easier in most cases. Another reason, I don't like that stuff. However, with foam, you can bury a piece of wood inside, had they planned ahead better.

I have a bad habit of sometimes telling people with a lot more experience how to do their jobs. It's come back to bite me in the ass more than once so I try to let the experts do their job. Personally, I would have done the mounting much different. I would have either done an internal mount or a much heavier duty applied bracket. I mentioned the internal mount and they said they'd do it but it would be a lot more money and they do this style all the time without a problem.

 

[Gino]

Sand it down, rough it up and put bondo in there and build it back up a layer at a time. Not all at once.

As for them doing it this way all the time, they must be a buncha hacks. Is that the place in allentown or around there ??

 

[rossmosh]

Sand it down, rough it up and put bondo in there and build it back up a layer at a time. Not all at once.

As for them doing it this way all the time, they must be a buncha hacks. Is that the place in allentown or around there ??

No. They are in the south, Midwest. I'd only consider calling them out by name if they don't stand behind their work.

 

[Gino]

I'm glad ya didn't name them, but those guys in allentown have made me mad on more than one occasion and it would've made sense.

 

[Stacey K]

I was unaware there were wholesalers for this type of sign. Is anyone willing to share one with me in the Midwest? PM is fine

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Looks like they messed up by painting the angle on the part that gets glue.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

Looks like they messed up by painting the angle on the part that gets glue.

I swear that's liquid nails too. Stuff is crap.

 

[DL Signs]

I just have to decide how I want to fix the damaged corner. I'm thinking of routing an edge and then painting it.

A little bondo & paint, it'll look good as new.

 

[Evan Gillette]

Yeah, I would say that's 100% on who put the angles on, I would have used more aggressive screws and more of them. Better yet just mount through the front in a counterbored hole then plug and finish the spot (but that is a lot more work). GRK and others make some big gnarly structural screws that grab really well in hdu. If you put it back up, that's what I would recommend. An easier option would be to get some flat head cabinet screws and paint them red to match and just run them through the front, if they didn't complain about unpainted treated 4x4s I don't think they will notice a few paint-matched screw heads.

 

[Evan Gillette]

Stacey, here is one I had bookmarked from before I got a router. Also try searching "sandblasted signs, cedar, redwood, carved signs".

Wholesale Carved Signs - New England Carved Signs

Award winning fabricators of high quality, reasonably priced, long lasting carved, sandblasted & dimensional signs, in wood, HUD & PVC since 1988.

newenglandcarvedsigns.com

HDUsigns.com | Your #1 Source for Wholesale HDU

HDUsigns.com specializes in making your HDU projects come to life! Signup today to get started or call 770.792.8898 for a formal quote.

www.hdusigns.com

 

[david lewicki]

I am no expert. Which would explain why this has happened to me before. But they install brackets with very thin screws and glue it on. Is there job done? Yes. Is it done well and hold up under any weight and pressure? No.
So you buy bigger fatter screws that won’t drill through the front when screwing the sign back on the bracket. Maybe buy self drilling screws that will drill a larger hole though the bracket metal and grip even better. Or drill bigger holes in bracket first. Or drill more holes an add screws. If you feel that is not enough, then you will have to drill through the front. But maybe only drill through the front on the four corners and the rest from behind.But there are many ways out of this situation. As long as you have help to hold the sign, you can try different ways.

 

[John Miller]

We use stainless carriage bolts through the face. The round heads look nice when painted the background color don’t try to hide them they look ok and are very solid in HDU

 

[rossmosh]

I swear that's liquid nails too. Stuff is crap.

I spoke with the supplier today. I didn't ask what they used but they want me to re-attach to the existing structure with Liquid Nails. I told them I had to think about how I wanted to handle things. Basically they wanted to do a ledge for the sign to sit on + liquid nails to the structure. I'm not super into that idea to be frank.

A little bondo & paint, it'll look good as new.

I'm going to patch and paint. All things considered, if I had to say anything about the situation, the amount of damage is minimal.

Yeah, I would say that's 100% on who put the angles on, I would have used more aggressive screws and more of them. Better yet just mount through the front in a counterbored hole then plug and finish the spot (but that is a lot more work). GRK and others make some big gnarly structural screws that grab really well in hdu. If you put it back up, that's what I would recommend. An easier option would be to get some flat head cabinet screws and paint them red to match and just run them through the front, if they didn't complain about unpainted treated 4x4s I don't think they will notice a few paint-matched screw heads.

Screws through the front only make so much of a difference. HDU has no grain structure so screwing through, which would obviously help, still isn't perfect because of that. So you get some improvement on the mounting but you make the sign a hell of a lot uglier.

Regarding the 4x4's, the unpainted section wasn't seen at all. Anything visible was painted. It wasn't really how I wanted the sign mounted, but it's what I could get done 1 day before their event after the bracket supplied didn't work.

Looks like they messed up by painting the angle on the part that gets glue.

It was a discussion point when I got them on the phone. They couldn't figure out how one of the angle pieces had the paint missing yet it wasn't on the sign and the other one had the paint still there. I told them my assumption was inconsistency during the mfg, which they suggested wasn't the case and they had pictures of something or other, but it wasn't a real point of argument.