HDU Sign Failure: Any reason the installation would be the reason for the failure?

[visual800]

the sign looks good BUT the angle and small screws are crap. YOU should have installed an aluminum framing rectangle between the columns and THEN installed their sign onto that using better hardware and no liquid nails. There is no doubt their angles and screws are cheesy as hell and dont get me started on liquid nails. Rip all that treated wood out and do aluminum this job can still be saved

 

[GAC05]

I spoke with the supplier today. I didn't ask what they used but they want me to re-attach to the existing structure with Liquid Nails. I told them I had to think about how I wanted to handle things. Basically they wanted to do a ledge for the sign to sit on + liquid nails to the structure. I'm not super into that idea to be frank.



I'm going to patch and paint. All things considered, if I had to say anything about the situation, the amount of damage is minimal.



Screws through the front only make so much of a difference. HDU has no grain structure so screwing through, which would obviously help, still isn't perfect because of that. So you get some improvement on the mounting but you make the sign a hell of a lot uglier.

Regarding the 4x4's, the unpainted section wasn't seen at all. Anything visible was painted. It wasn't really how I wanted the sign mounted, but it's what I could get done 1 day before their event after the bracket supplied didn't work.



It was a discussion point when I got them on the phone. They couldn't figure out how one of the angle pieces had the paint missing yet it wasn't on the sign and the other one had the paint still there. I told them my assumption was inconsistency during the mfg, which they suggested wasn't the case and they had pictures of something or other, but it wasn't a real point of argument.

You figure out how you are going to remount it?

 

[CanuckSigns]

The wholesaler we use always reccomends cedar over HDU for any application like this, he told me HDU is only good if the sign is completly supported like against a wall or something.

A sign of this stature should have had a ladder frame welded up and sandwiched in the sign, even if it's single sided, a few hundred extra $ to cut a plain back would have prevented this.

 

[RetepK]

Long story short, I ordered a sign from a wholesaler. I wasn't supposed to install it, but ended up having to. The supplied brackets didn't fit so I had to rig some 4x4's as cross beams. The angle bracket came glued and screwed to the sign.

Personally, I wasn't a big fan of the way the mounting was designed. I left it up the manufacturer and they said this is their standard method.

The only place I could see my install causing the failure is the wood moving and twisting, which would put some additional forces against the sign. While a possibility, it seems a bit unlikely considering the sign failed as soon as we had some bad weather.

Just wanting to know some other thoughts.

Pictures: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1jropzNr9KwxbpyAf7K57gyFUsSYR5OIZ?usp=sha

I would have used steel for the cross bars. HDU doesn't like movement.

 

[bowtievega]

Ya those mounting angles are waaaay to small. We would have probably used a full aluminum backer that you could bond the entire sign too. Use flat head machine screws to mechanically fasten the angle to the backer before you bond the sign on. It doesn't have to be the full size either, just do a rectangle that is slightly larger than the height between your wood rails, that should be plenty of bond area. We have never had much luck screwing anything to the back of HDU foam unless it was just to hold it in place until your adhesive sets up. The original gorilla glue works great on HDU as well as a simple two part epoxy. Not a big fan of the floating foam panels like that, too easy to damage with very little support, especially on a ground sign.

 

[david lewicki]

Long story short, I ordered a sign from a wholesaler. I wasn't supposed to install it, but ended up having to. The supplied brackets didn't fit so I had to rig some 4x4's as cross beams. The angle bracket came glued and screwed to the sign.

Personally, I wasn't a big fan of the way the mounting was designed. I left it up the manufacturer and they said this is their standard method.

The only place I could see my install causing the failure is the wood moving and twisting, which would put some additional forces against the sign. While a possibility, it seems a bit unlikely considering the sign failed as soon as we had some bad weather.

Just wanting to know some other thoughts.

Pictures: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1jropzNr9KwxbpyAf7K57gyFUsSYR5OIZ?usp=sharing

Not sure if you solved your problem yet but I have a easy solution. Take the “L” bracket that’s on the bottom 4x 4 and turn it 45 degree so the L is facing out. Screw it to the 4 x 4 and have the sign rest now on top of the bracket that is facing out. Then screw the sign to the bracket from the bottom it is resting on. It’s kinda hard to explain on here way I making you to do but hopefully you follow. The top bracket just keeps where it’s at and screw into the sign with thicker screws and gorilla glue. Let me know if this makes sense how I described it.

 

[JWitkowski]

Long story short, I ordered a sign from a wholesaler. I wasn't supposed to install it, but ended up having to. The supplied brackets didn't fit so I had to rig some 4x4's as cross beams. The angle bracket came glued and screwed to the sign.

Personally, I wasn't a big fan of the way the mounting was designed. I left it up the manufacturer and they said this is their standard method.

The only place I could see my install causing the failure is the wood moving and twisting, which would put some additional forces against the sign. While a possibility, it seems a bit unlikely considering the sign failed as soon as we had some bad weather.

Just wanting to know some other thoughts.

Pictures: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1jropzNr9KwxbpyAf7K57gyFUsSYR5OIZ?usp=sharing

It looks like the back face was painted first, then glued. The strength of the bond is only as good as the weakest link and in your case, it looks like the bond between the paint and the HDU was the weak point. Hard to see, even with the minimum mounting used, how the sign would have just fallen off, unless there was a strong wind or some vandalism at work or someone doing a 'test' of the mount strength. At any rate, that weak mount was doomed to fail right from the beginning, one way or another. Others have already shared some excellent methods to remount the sign.

To fill & repair the damaged edges, Coastal Enterprises has this filler: FSC-360 WB HDU Filler. How To video:

 

[rossmosh]

I appreciate the feedback. I don't have a finalized plan for those asking. I don't love any of my options right now.

The few things I do know:

1. I'll be repairing the corner with filler and paint. It should go relatively smoothly.

2. The sign will rest on a cross beam to reduce the amount of shear force.

Right now I'm trying to decide if I'm ditching the 4x4's for a metal frame work and if I do, what will that metal framework look like. The biggest issue is clearance. It's a 96" panel with a 96.5" span. It's not exactly 96.5" obviously so whatever I decide on has to take that into consideration.

I'm also going back and forth on how I want this sign to "hang" on the frame work. Going back to glue is not ideal to me, especially considering I'll be gluing to a painted surface that's already got glue and shit on it. I'm probably over thinking things a bit and if I just used upgraded the angle to 2"x2" with Gorilla glue, it would be fine with the addition of the ledge, but at this point, I need to make 100% sure this sign is over engineered not just engineered enough to stay up for 10 years.

 

[GAC05]

I'm also going back and forth on how I want this sign to "hang" on the frame work

My turn;
Get some black anodized aluminum 'L' angle (metal store or glass company). See if you can get a size that has one leg the same as the thickness of the sign blank so it will be flush with the front and you don't have to rip it.
Cup the sign on the top and bottom flats & screw the extrusions in from 2 angles so it won't pull out. Countersink the top so they are flush, or countersink them all so it looks good.
If you don't want the one on the top showing (& to be a full 'L' all the way across) you could rip the short leg down to about half or three quarters the thickness of the sign and then cut a groove a half inch or so down from the top flats on the backside. Deep enough to sink the short leg into the HDU so the other is flush (skill saw with a finishing blade should work). Then use long countersunk screws top down through the blank & extrusion to pin it. Maybe even fill the groove with gorilla glue before you slide in the top L-angle to lock it in before you set the screws.
You'd then have more than enough metal all the way around to mount to the posts & HDU with nothing showing on the front face.

 

[rossmosh]

I appreciate the drawing. I thought about that option seriously. My problem I'm having is, I'm essentially relying on 4 screws in each corner going into 1/8" aluminum for all of the shear force and force going from the back of the panel towards the face. If the panel was 4 or 5 feet wide, I'd be 100% on board with it, but with it being an 8 ft panel, I have concerns.

 

[GAC05]

I appreciate the drawing. I thought about that option seriously. My problem I'm having is, I'm essentially relying on 4 screws in each corner going into 1/8" aluminum for all of the shear force and force going from the back of the panel towards the face. If the panel was 4 or 5 feet wide, I'd be 100% on board with it, but with it being an 8 ft panel, I have concerns.

I'd run the screws all the way up verticle side brackets into the back of the sign and if there was flex in sign-blank, cross brace horizontally with some tubing and add more screws all the way across thru the tubes into the HDU back side. The ends of the tubes would tie into the side brackets.
Could also cut a sheet of 16g aluminum to fill the back of the sign all the way across - go to town gluing and screwing it into the HDU, then frame it on top of that.

 

[Gino]

Easy fix, but you'll have some collateral damage, which can be rectified.

Cut a 3/4" piece of fully painted tops, bottom and sides of MDO the same size as the main body of your sign. Screw through the front of the sign into the MDO and countersink. Fill holes with bondo and paint. Put up your two stringers and put 3 top and 3 bottom carriage bolts and place them so they look aesthetically pleasing. Paint the heads and yer done. Oops, paint the back all the same, again.

 

[rossmosh]

I went on site yesterday to evaluate again before proceeding with my plan, which was to add additional structure + use the existing. The existing wooden structure was to blame for the sign failing. I knew it wasn't perfect, but in the rush of doing this extremely last minute + the original provided mounting brackets not working, I let some things slide and it's my fault.

For future people, what failed was the twisting and sagging of the 4x4's. I honestly had a feeling this was a problem. I was talked out to adding some additional structure. It was a mistake. At minimum, several 2x4's should have been added to link the two cross beams, making it one solid structure. I don't know if this would have solved the problem, but it definitely would have helped.

So I'm throwing out everything existing. I'm using the cross members that were supplied and modifying them to they'll fit. I'm also cutting 3/8" off each end of the sign to get some tolerance so the sign will slide in and have some room for growth.

In addition, I'm adding a 2"x2"x.1875" aluminum angle to the bottom of the sign which will be supported by some 12"x6" steel corner brackets. Lastly, I'll be adding the same 2" angle aluminum to the edge of the sign (approximately 18") and then mounting a piece to the posts.

In total, 2 - 1.5"x1.5" cross beams for warping and cross winds.. 1 - 2"x2" Angle with brackets to take shear. Additional 2"x"2" angle to take a combination of sheet and cross winds.

My only question is: Can I get away without adding a backer board at this point? It's 2" thick, 20lbs DUNA HDU. For $200, I can add a piece of .063" Matte Black Aluminum. For $115 I can add a piece of 3mm ACM. Right now I don't have the days to use MDO as the painting and prep work will just take too much time.

 

[Gino]

I think it's Murphy's Law, # 23 : There's never time to do it right, but there's always time to do it over. If the sign has been down all this time, why didn't you have the time to get the MDO board ?? If ya just can't wait for MDO, then I'd go to a piece of .090. Just did a few signs with .090 and I think that's gonna be my go to from now on.

 

[rossmosh]

Well in my case, I didn't have the time to do it right the first time and now I don't have the time to fix/redo it really, but I'm doing my best.

I have family and business issues going on at the same time. Setting aside time to prep and paint MDO just isn't in the cards. I ordered the aluminum which will come in a day or two so I can glue it straight to the sign with Urethane glue

To clarify, we don't really do installations. This was supposed to be done by the town but because the supplier took longer than expected and then it took 10 days to deliver instead of 3, I literally got it on a Thursday to install for a Monday. When the brackets failed, it was hack up the sign or ditch the brackets. Ditching the brackets at the time seemed the most reasonable solution. Now I'm hacking up the sign anyway.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Adding the metal backer is cheap insurance. I think that step will be key.

 

[bcxprint420]

Stacey, here is one I had bookmarked from before I got a router. Also try searching "sandblasted signs, cedar, redwood, carved signs".

Wholesale Carved Signs - New England Carved Signs

Award winning fabricators of high quality, reasonably priced, long lasting carved, sandblasted & dimensional signs, in wood, HUD & PVC since 1988.

newenglandcarvedsigns.com

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Think the key word you may be missing is “wholesale. Aka for the trade.

 

[ExtremeG Alamosa]

Same thing happened to a sign that the previous owner of my shop fabbed the same way (glue it and screwit). For several reasons I ordered a new one from http://www.FlyingDonkeyCreative.com. It came with threaded inserts which have significantly more surface area for the foam to adhere to. To fix I'd recommend ordering some inserts and installing them yourself with and epoxy that wont dissolve the foam. Then threaded rods thru the 2x4's.

 

[rossmosh]

The aluminum backer solves a couple problems but adds to the problems too due to the fact gluing to it pretty much sucks with "normal" glues. After doing some tests, I had to bite the bullet and buy Lords MaxLok. I couldn't take the risk of the glue, screw, and tape failing. The adhesion with the Polyurathane adhesive to the HDU is solid. Aluminum to aluminum might have been okay, especially with some VHB tape, but I just couldn't stomach the risk.

Upon reflection, I would have gone with the MDO and sucked up the extra time painting and prepping it. The aluminum has cost me more money and barely saved me any time.

 

[Gino]

At least it's up and holding.

Now ya have some insight what to ask or look for on the next one. Not to mention, all the people possibly doing a similar project, what they can look forward to. I think you've helped quite a few people with this one.