Help on fabbing a multi-panel acm sign WITH A TWIST (well, a curve anyway)

[jtiii]

Hi, I've been making flat signs for years, and recently made a few pan signs by routing a groove in alumalite or 3mm acm and folding the edges. I've done a few multipanel signs as well with alumalite and dowel pins. Now I have a customer who wants a sign that is going to need three panels -

So I was planning on bending 1" edges and butting the returns together, and fastening with bolts and fender washers. Question #1 - is that a sufficient means of joining? Do I need to use aluminum strips or even angle pieces?

Question #2 - How do I fab the return on the curved part? I'm guessing I need to cut a strip and attach with a bunch of corner brackets - if so how often do I need to place a bracket? And Gorilla Glue or should I use some Lord's acrylic?

Last but most definitely not least, I am installing this on a stucco wall. I was planning on attaching strips of angle to the wall and using rivets to attach the sign. Does it make sense to attach the 4'x15' rectangle to the wall, relax the return along the flat side of the semicircle, rivet the flat to the top of the rectangle (with predrilled holes natch) and then just tip the semicircle up and rivet it to say three small pcs of angle, maybe at 11 o'clock, 12, and 1?
Thanks much,
John

Whoops, question #4, do y'all think a regular 90 degree router bit is okay to use, or do I need to get one with a radius bottom for really good seams?

 

[J Hill Designs]

riveting the sign to the brackets is bad form if you ever want to take it down.

just sayin

 

[jtiii]

riveting the sign to the brackets is bad form if you ever want to take it down.

just sayin

They look so nice though - is it a real pain to drill them out?

 

[Rick]

First, I would never use ACM or Amualite for "pan" or dimensional panels.

You might want to think about hidden attachments, rivets, exposed hardware
of any kind looks cheap unless it's somehow incorporated into the design.

I would use an aluminum panel.

Use angle at the edges, when you get to the radius, kerf cut the angle and bend
to follow the aluminum.

Lords Adhesive the angle to the panel.


The attach flush to the wall, attach angle to the wall that will fit inside the sign.
Slide sign over, the screw in through the sides. No exposed attachment on the
face.

 

[MikePro]

I'd be saving myself a headache trying to fabricate the return for the rounded-part, by subsituting some "filler" in the form of 1" HDU.
1) build a triangular frame with your 1" returns, bottom-square portion-only
2) secure your routed panel to the frame, however you wish, this includes round portion on the top
3) "fill-in" the rounded top-portion with a piece of routed 1" HDU (or PVC), secured to your routed panel and sits flush atop your frame.

 

[jtiii]

1) build a triangular frame with your 1" returns, bottom-square portion-only
2) secure your routed panel to the frame, however you wish, this includes round portion on the top
3) "fill-in" the rounded top-portion with a piece of routed 1" HDU (or PVC), secured to your routed panel and sits flush atop your frame.

Mike, thanks for the information, the foam makes a lot of sense. What do you mean by a triangular frame?
John

 

[jtiii]

First, I would never use ACM or Amualite for "pan" or dimensional panels.

Thanks for the help Rick. Why would you steer clear of using the composite materials for a dimensional panel? We have made about a dozen, but none have been in the field for more than a couple of years. I originally got the idea/technique from this SignCraft article - http://www.signcraft.com/community/...ate-signs-from-aluminum-composite-panels.aspx

Thank you,
John

 

[jtiii]

Alternatively I don't necessarily need to have pan faces, I could go flat to the wall, but I'm not sure how I would join them.

 

[MikePro]

Mike, thanks for the information, the foam makes a lot of sense. What do you mean by a triangular frame?
John

this is a 3-sided sign right? with a 1" return?
build your structure, skin with panels, fill-in missing return for the circle with plastic/wood


edited: oops! nvm, misread the OP. its just a LARGE sign that will require 3panels to complete. I got it now.
if you're still looking to make a 1" return, maybe build a frame on the wall with 1" wood/alum, and then secure your faces to it.

here, we would use routed .090 aluminum faces with welded 1" extruded alum angle. angle is notched/rolled for the circle. all seams are then usually filled/sanded prior to painting.
To install, we would then mount some angle at the corners/centers of the perimeter on the wall, and countersunk screws to secure frame to them.

 

[Rick]

Thanks for the help Rick. Why would you steer clear of using the composite materials for a dimensional panel? We have made about a dozen, but none have been in the field for more than a couple of years. I originally got the idea/technique from this SignCraft article - http://www.signcraft.com/community/...ate-signs-from-aluminum-composite-panels.aspx

Thank you,
John

How many dimensional panels have you made with aluminum
frame and sheeting?

As the article spells out, this way of making a large sign is
a "cost effective" way of making a sign...

I translate as a cheap way to make a sale. I get that making
any sale is the goal of most sign shops. But - depending on
the client - building a sign that is built solid, with no seams,
exposes plastic flutes, rivets and attachments is what
"craftsmanship" is and what they expect. There might not be a
"standard" fabrication method, but generally this would be an
aluminum frame skinned with aluminum sheeting. The tab
method on that article does not make a solid structure, you
can have a lot of flex (during handing and attachment) you
will have gaps, where as a continuous angle will allow for a
seamless, solid finish with no gaps.

You and the articles author both admit to not having this type
of construction up longer than 3 years. It would be interesting
to see the signs after 3 more years. I'd have a hard time using
a material that uses plastic (i.e. coroplast) as the base structure.
The 5 year warranty seems encouraging but I would prefer a 7-10
year guarantee. I have signs that are still up after 35 years...now
I want to replace my clients signs faster than that, but I sleep
better at night knowing the signs I designed hold up. I'm the guy
who fixes stuff like this and does not hesitate to show the client
why the sign did not hold up as long as the other signs around them.

Again, I get there are cheap clients, give them cheap materials like
this method and tell them it will not hold up as long as an aluminum
frame and skinned structure, it will not be as solid, they will see some
minor gaps and waves, and they will see attachments.

Do not use this method as your standard way of fabricating a pan sign.

 

[jtiii]

here, we would use routed .090 aluminum faces with welded 1" extruded alum angle. angle is notched/rolled for the circle. all seams are then usually filled/sanded prior to painting.
To install, we would then mount some angle at the corners/centers of the perimeter on the wall, and countersunk screws to secure frame to them.

As the article spells out, this way of making a large sign is
a "cost effective" way of making a sign...

I translate as a cheap way to make a sale...

...I'm the guy who fixes stuff like this and does not hesitate to show the client
why the sign did not hold up as long as the other signs around them...

Do not use this method as your standard way of fabricating a pan sign.

Mike and Rick, thank you both for the time you spent addressing my questions. Thank you for your candor. I don't know how to weld aluminum and I have already accepted this job, so I'm going to produce it as I described initially (I may switch to alumalite on the rectangular portion for some added rigidity). I am going to mount the rectangular portion to the wall, then use the bottom return of the half round as a hinge, affixing it to the rectangle and then tipping it up to the wall. As the sign is well above eye level I plan to mount some angle at the top of the round and mate it to angle on the wall. Here's a picture -

Thanks again. The only thing I'm disappointed about is that none of you veterans showed up with a sarcastic reply so I could completely lose my sh*t and make a fool of myself (before posting I of course did some searching through the forums, it's funny how often that seemed to play out with first time posters, especially once this guy started showing up)...

 

[Rick]

Just wanted to add that the method I described does not require welding.

You fufeehead!!! (just wanted to make you feel welcome)

 

[J Hill Designs]

You fufeehead!!!

always jumpin on the new guy, Rick, sheesh!

 

[Rick]

always jumpin on the new guy, rick, sheesh!

and a booger flick!!!!

 

[player]

You forgot to ask us how much you should charge, how long it will take, and what will you need to start doing wraps.