Help Settle an Argument Regarding Ordering Panfaces

[jimmysings]

Unfortunately that's what I've come to expect from this place, a condescending reply that doesn't really resolve anything. Using different terminology to reiterate part of what I already said isn't helping me understand how we can get on the same page. He is giving me the "live area size" and "overall size" and expecting me to extrapolate the cabinet dimensions from that in order to create a proof and I am having difficulty explaining to him why that is difficult. If you cannot help me without "going batty" that's fine and please move on but there's no reason to be rude. I'm aware that the argument is stupid and I'm trying to educate myself so I can hopefully be more clear. Maybe I made a mistake calling it an argument? I didn't realize that would be taken so literally.

a visual opening is ALWAYS a visible opening...you measure the existing face size and then you have to take into account the flange size..most pans have a 1 1/2" - 2" flange (usually 2") for designing...i always tell my guys just pull the existing face out and measure it...

 

[Johnny Best]

If you go to a sign cabinet with a pan face and take off the end retainer and pull the face out about a foot. If the face measures from the inside 47.5" and the cabinet measures 48" it should indicate the face was cut .25: all around and you should be able to see the gap at the top and the leyway given when cut. And also on the edge of where you took the retainer off. Some faces have hangers attached at top. But giving names to certain things depend on where the person learned the trade. If he came from Australia I am sure they have various names for what your looking for.
Since you are a designer, draw out a rough sketch what you need from the installer and maybe he can help you with your problem.
I learned a new term this morning, "power user".

 

[signbrad]

Create a diagram with a spot for each measurement to be filled in.
Then it doesn't matter what you call them

I think Bill's post is the winner.

 

[lolfailure]

I'm confused about the surveyor not getting the cabinet size though... that's how I measure the sign without removing the face... ya can't measure the face in place because of the extrusion... I wonder if he's removing these things to measure. I duno, that part confuses me.

He's sliding the faces out to measure, not really sure what his methods are either.

No matter who is to blame, it's important you all are on the same page. The installer should be doing everything in his power to make sure you understand 100% what needs to happen. After all, they are the ones that loose when it doesn't go right.

That's been my opinion the whole time, I can't really understand his insistence that the measurements I'm asking for aren't necessary just because "nobody else over needed them" since, well, I do need them.

People were really getting hung up on the "argument" word, possibly due to the first responder choosing to make some hasty judgments about my relationship with my co-worker but this really mischaracterizes the situation in a way I hadn't predicted. We simply have a disagreement that I thought you all could help resolve. This isn't preventing us from working together by any means. It's creating some extra work where I have to clarify what he means when he swaps terminology between projects and because the "just add .25in" rule is foreign to me and I was questioning the accuracy of estimating that way. He is resistant to going back out on site to get the measurements he "forgot" because it is extra work and he doesn't see why it is important to me. My hope was that I could get an idea of what everyone else was doing that would help us clear things up, not so I could come back and say "AHA you WERE wrong!" I tried to leave my reasoning open to the possibility that I am completely wrong because, as you say, I only know what I have learned on the job; there's no textbook to reference back to. I appreciate the responses and I apologize if I have been unclear.

 

[lolfailure]

I think Bill's post is the winner.

So far this does seem the easiest way to clear things up. Thanks to both of you.

 

[Billct2]

and it documents the information you were given

 

[shoresigns]

Since everyone seems to have different terms they use, I simply ask for three measurements: the inner and outer dimensions of the frame on the cabinet, and the actual dimensions of the acrylic panel. There's no ambiguity there, so anyone who doesn't understand it should be swiftly replaced.

 

[Gino]

This is the exact same scenario as the person who says cut the board in half.

So, I have a 4' × 8', is that gonna be a 2' × 8' or a 4' × 4' ?? The person making the request has a visual in their head, the person cutting it has a visual in his head....... and then there's what is supposed to be a formula. Is it length times width or width times height..... oops I mean width. Which way is horizontal vs vertical. In everyone's book ?? Ince its cut, it's far easier to say I want a 2' sign left to right by 8' top to bottom. If you remain stubborn and want it your way, you could cost the company money over silliness. When you work somewhere, these things really don't matter, until you do this once or twice and cost the owner HIS money. So, like I said in the beginning, get your boss to make a standard for the sake of the company an maybe even your job.

I could see talking about this on break or whatever..... but then, if it were me, it would be up to the intelligent person to go ask the boss and not 1,000 other people.

 

[Billct2]

"it's far easier to say I want a 2' sign left to right by 8' top to bottom" I use this all the time when a client gives me a size

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

"it's far easier to say I want a 2' sign left to right by 8' top to bottom" I use this all the time when a client gives me a size

That's sounds easier to understand. When I ask a client about a "4 by 8" I say would you like it vertical or horizontal... and then I question whether or not they know really which one vertical or horizontal really is.

 

[eahicks]

I think Bill's post is the winner.

Yes this. And take a straight on photo. In the words of one of my favorite shows (Letterkenny)... "figure it out"

 

[spectrum maine]

could you give me your definition of VO?

vo= visible opening of retainer to retainer
flat area= useable area of pan, on a flat face this is the vo
od= outside area of cabinet
cut size = finished size of plastic
retainer size
all critical measurements

 

[Andy D]

My panface terminology:
Visible opening = opening between retainers
Flat area= flat area of the panface for graphics
trim size = the size outside to outside the panel needs to slide in and not fall out
return size = the depth of the pan

 

[Megagrafix]

I am having a disagreement with the installer at my shop on the terminology of some sign components and it's causing a bit of confusion. When he goes out to get measurements of existing cabinets he is bringing back the measurements of the trim size of the panface inside the sign and sometimes the retainer size plus measurements of the top extruded pan part of the panface which I have always known as the graphic or copy area. He is certain that this is called the "visual opening" however my understanding is that the visual opening is the distance from the inside edge of one retain to the inside edge of the opposite retainer. He claims that while this may be the case for flat faced signs that can have copy from retainer to retainer, the visual opening of a panface is defined differently because of the extrusion.

Further he reasons that the trim size of the panface including the flange should be the only important measurements and that I should be able to extrapolate measurements of the cabinet he is surveying by adding about a quarter inch to the cut size. He claims that with other designers they had no trouble taking just these measurements and creating an accurately sized proof. I understand that the trim size is important for ensuring the sign is not too big or too small for the cabinet and his main focus is on preventing us from ordering a sign that is too big or too small to install once it's purchased and on a job site. But for the purposes of creating an accurate proof I am having difficultly using the graphic area+flange+sometimes retainer size or trim size to determine the size of the cabinet itself.

Am I wrong? Or is he mixing up his terminology? If someone has the time, could you explain the most accurate way of ordering a panface for an existing sign cabinet?


(Additionally, could anyone tell me if it is possible to determine the appropriate print size for a panface using perhaps the trim size/extrusion depth/flange size or does the manufacturing procedure vary too much to accurately estimate the angle of the extrusion? Sorry if this is a lot, I appreciate anyone who could take the time to help me understand this. It has been difficult to find other resources online that describe this clearly so I come here as a last resort!)

Google “Daniels Signs” in FL. They do these wholesale. They can advise you.

 

[China signage Maker]

a visual opening is ALWAYS a visible opening...you measure the existing face size and then you have to take into account the flange size..most pans have a 1 1/2" - 2" flange (usually 2") for designing...i always tell my guys just pull the existing face out and measure it...

"it's far easier to say I want a 2' sign left to right by 8' top to bottom" I use this all the time when a client gives me a size

DO you have some drawing photos ?