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hey everyone hoping you can give me a quick pointer

I am replacing a set of old 4x8 sign faces from a sign box and the retaining slot is a hair under 5/16. I got 3/16 polycarbonate. Do you think it is necessary to use hanging strip still? I would only be able to use a 1/16 thick strip.. and would aluminum strip work OK in this scenario riveted to the face.
Thanks!
 

player

New Member
Any photos? Pics would be a big help.

What was there before? Pan faces?

What type of frame is it?

You might want to replace the frame with EX7 or similar...
 
They were pan faces and I made the customer aware that there was most likely going to be hot spots but he didn't care. And he plans to retrofit to side lit leds at some point..

Basically I am wonderin if forgoing the normal backer strips would hurt anything since it's only a little more than a 1/16 of an inch..
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
What size/depth is the can itself ??

At that size, most likely the pan faced was used to prevent the hot spots but also it adds substantial strength and integrity to the face to stay in place. A mere flat face is going to bow, in and out, unless there are bumpers inside, which I highly doubt there are, plus it's just not professional to let the customer decide on an electric sign installation, just to save a buck. Honestly, you should know better, if you do this routinely for a living and turn the job down, due to the basic fact, it is bad practice to do this.

Will things work and fit ?? Sure, but not correctly. So, if he/she has a problem down the road, whose fault will it be ?? The guy who does not know any better ..... or the guy who does not care ??
 
I made him aware of that possibility as well. He doesn't care. He called me and ordered "two 4x8 lit sign faces" I asked him if the previous faces were flat or pan and he said pan but wanted flat. I told him the issues that could occur with not using the correct face for the box. He stated that he thought pan faces looked cheesy and wanted flat. I made him sign a paper stating that I explained these issues that could come from using flat faces. He is installing them as well.
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
I made him aware of that possibility as well. He doesn't care. He called me and ordered "two 4x8 lit sign faces" I asked him if the previous faces were flat or pan and he said pan but wanted flat. I told him the issues that could occur with not using the correct face for the box. He stated that he thought pan faces looked cheesy and wanted flat. I made him sign a paper stating that I explained these issues that could come from using flat faces. He is installing them as well.


All that is well and good, but does excuse you from making the wrong choice.

If I went to the dentist, he said I needed a root canal and I said no, I just want you to fill the cavity. Do you think he's gonna say well, sign this paper and all ends well ??

You dodging doing the right thing and getting a signed paper does not make it right.
 
Gino I see your point.. but when someone says I want this and only wants to pay for that you kind of have to give them what they want.. I mean if you went to a tattoo artist and said I want a butterfly on my neck and the artist said no I don't want to do that because down the road you may regret getting it on your neck would they be in business long? I do realize it's not the best or I guess right way to go.. but my question was about the extrusion and needing the extra 1/16".. I do everything by the book 99% of the time and situations like this I make the customer aware it's not the correct way. If they want to continue they know the risk...
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
Gino I see your point.. but when someone says I want this and only wants to pay for that you kind of have to give them what they want.. I mean if you went to a tattoo artist and said I want a butterfly on my neck and the artist said no I don't want to do that because down the road you may regret getting it on your neck would they be in business long? I do realize it's not the best or I guess right way to go.. but my question was about the extrusion and needing the extra 1/16".. I do everything by the book 99% of the time and situations like this I make the customer aware it's not the correct way. If they want to continue they know the risk...
Your defense or reasoning is weak and almost lame.

I am not arguing or discussing with you about your decision , I am merely trying to point out to anyone in the future reading this thread doesn't take the same low end method you did. It's quite evident, you aren't gonna change your ways or policies, so let's at least make sure no one follows your bad thinking or procedures in business.

Now again, what was the depth of the can ??

As for the tattoo arguement, one has nothing to do with the other. The tattoo scenario is a personal decision one has to live with after the fact, while your sign situation is a common sense engineering thing.


The extra space in there is needed for expansion & contraction.

For me, if someone is a fool about a decision on my end about safety or professionalism, other than bad layouts or designs, I walk away from potential disasters, regardless what a customer thinks or wants.
 
Yes you are right man. I agree with you. And my work is always done the right way. With the exception of this one time being that the customer does not want pan faces. The box is 6" deep according to him...
I'm not trying to argue either just came to get some advice on the extrusion. Sorry if I came off like wasn't taking advice..
 

player

New Member
It can be dangerous to have a sign face not hooked into the framing.

Photos are required to make a proper determination...

I think you need to build new framing to modify the can to accept the flat faces.

The 1/16" hanger is not going to do it in my opinion...
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
So, if someone comes into your shop and orders a 2 sided sign for his place of business, you don't ask any questions ??
Like what material, digital print, sandblasted, carved, electric sign or whatever, you just make a sign ??

However, if in passing he says its a 4' x 6' cedar sandblasted sign.... to be hung from a yard arm bracket type of setup, you're not going to tell him it can't be done and just make whatever he asks for ?? Even after he says, I'll sign a paper letting you off the hook if it falls on someone....... you're still gonna make it ??

I would hope your training as a professional and stand up characteristics of a fellow person would prevent you from doing such a wrong.

If you knowingly give this same guy 2pcs 4 x 8 flat panels for a sign, which wasn't designed for sure h a substrate....... and you know it, you guys are still gonna sell it to this person ??

Well, you do the math. No where what you're doing is such an act considered ethical, unless you retrofit that can to accept flat faces. Now, how will the guy save money ??

It's all about making a buck..... and I'm all for that, wholeheartedly, but not at someone else's expense if I know better.

You guys really wanna go down on record with these kinda work ethics ??​
 

player

New Member
Sign Tech and Sign Pro extrusion systems both make extrusions to retrofit the box for regular plastic...

Even EX7 would do in a pinch...

I think EX13 is the big one...
 

phototec

New Member
I made him aware of that possibility as well. He doesn't care. He called me and ordered "two 4x8 lit sign faces" I asked him if the previous faces were flat or pan and he said pan but wanted flat. I told him the issues that could occur with not using the correct face for the box. He stated that he thought pan faces looked cheesy and wanted flat. I made him sign a paper stating that I explained these issues that could come from using flat faces. He is installing them as well.


"He is installing them as well",
ok that makes ALL THE DIFFERENCE in the world, just make them however he wants, let him come and get them and after he installs them (wrong) and they blow out of the frame with a strong wind, because you had him SIGN a paper, and you are NOT responsible, he will have to order some more, ching, ching! :ROFLMAO:
 

visual800

Active Member
WTH is going on this post? Did this just up and take a new life?

OP LISTEN! Go get a lexan face, 4x8 and shove it in the can and be done!. Dont worry bout spacers, hangers or whatever the hell else came up in this post. If the customer was explained to about pan faces and hotspots than so be it

Ya'll please stop making stuff so damn difficult. I had to read this whole damn post 2 times to grasp where it went wrong
 

DirtyD

New Member
I agree a lot.. Gino must not do much business because he turns everyone away because it's not done his way. Most customers want to save money and could care less of OUR recommendations. If I am going to do a sign that really isn't the right way, I'm not turning down the work, I don't care if it's even ugly. Does it reflect on my business and practices not really. Most 95% of people won't care, or would understand that A. Customer designed B. They installed. C. They went the cheapest route.

Just because they went the cheaper route and am installing themselves.. then more power to them.. let them learn the hard way that's how some people learn. but I am not going to lose out on money because of it.

In this instance... I would put the flat lexan in the sign and screw the hell out of with 3/8" self tappers.. depending on what type of trim either inside the trim into the frame or screw right through the face of the trim through the lexan and frame and touch the screws up...

I have done this many of times, customer is happy and I did it to where its not gonna fail during any normal to above normal wind/storms... etc

This is called providing options for different budgets and not This is what it is.. take it or leave it...or well I only use 3M guess you need to go down the street and use that other stuff from that cheap place
 

DirtyD

New Member
Ok..Whatever.. Entitled to your own Opinion....

Like I said it's called providing options for your customers budget.. I'm not saying sell him whatever he wants..If it down right wont work and it's unsafe then no I would'nt sell it.. BUT if it does work just not as pretty.. then sell it...It's not about morals or principals...It's coming to an agreement on customers budget...Get over yourself and your my way is the only way and best way attitude.

I've been installing signage for over 15yrs... I know what works and what doesn't and what you should or shouldn't do..Were talking about a 4 x 8 piece of lexan..NOT THAT BIG OF A DEAL... I've seen and installed larger flat panels....in signs with 1/2" trim gap that used to hold V3 changeable copy.. it's called let the customer know it's not made for it but it can be done.. it just wont be pretty
 

Moze

Active Member
WTH is going on this post? Did this just up and take a new life?

OP LISTEN! Go get a lexan face, 4x8 and shove it in the can and be done!. Dont worry bout spacers, hangers or whatever the hell else came up in this post. If the customer was explained to about pan faces and hotspots than so be it

Ya'll please stop making stuff so damn difficult. I had to read this whole damn post 2 times to grasp where it went wrong

This.
 
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