Hey! What's up with this Ronan gold size anyway?!

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I bought some Ronan fast dry gold size and it seems fine except... I like to use 2 coats of size. It gives me a better finish. If I use Ronan size the second coat won't lay down. It's like I waxed the first coat and then slathered it with silicone. The size just beads up. Is this stuff waxed like fiberglass finishing resin? Mineral spirits takes the offending substance off so I can second coat but it's making me antsy. Will this stuff fail in 6 or 8 years or what? Maybe I have a bad batch?

 

[Si Allen]

I think you have it all backwards.

The thinner the gold size the better off you will be.

Never having used Ronan's quick size ... can't comment on that.

Rolco is supposed to be pretty good now and 1Shot quick size is now crap since they changed the formula.

LeFranc's new formula is supposed to be good but slow (I have some but haven't used any yet).

A rely good explanation is an old article by Rick Glawson :

http://www.theletterheads.com/glawson/goldsize.html

 

[signmeup]

OK I'm using ROLCO size. (I gotta get off these meds...)

I use the size's self leveling qualities to render my lettering uber smooth. I put on the first coat really thick and let it dry completely. The second coat is put on at the normal depth but it beads up on the first coat. One shot didn't have this odd property but skinned over and turned to snot in the can which I found annoying. Rolco doesn't get the "skin from hell" but it it beads up on the second coat. Which I find annoying. Where's Joe Chips? I think He uses the Rolco.

What did Rick Glawson have to say about Rolco repelling itself if you try for a second coat?

 

[Si Allen]

http://www.rolcolabs.com/products/GildingSizes/Rolco Artisan Clear Oil Gilding Size.pdf

 

[signmeup]

Thanks Si. I sent off an email to Rolco Labs. Let see what they say.

 

[Jillbeans]

I've never double-coated size.
Like Si sez I always tried for the thinnest coat.
I've never gotten good results using Rolco, though.
The LeFranc slow size seemed to accomodate my ineptitude.
Love....Jill

 

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Rolco seem baffled by my situation. They recommend a second coat of size if you miss the open tack time. I have reformulated my question to them and await further info. I shall post whatever solution they forward. They did offer up another Rolco product, "burnish" something or other, but as they are unable to explain the difficulty with the first product I am reluctant to try another.

I have re-read Rick Glawson's article and have a question. Unfortunately Mr. Glawson is no longer with us. The question is in regards to his recommendation to apply the size as thin as possible, "One more note, as with any size, apply it as thinly as possible. A grease smudge is not too thin." Fine... but he then goes on to say that slow size is great because it "flows out" and leaves no brush marks. Now, someone smarter than me will have to explain how this works. Size applied thinly in a "grease smudge" has no brush marks and will not flow out.

 

[SignManiac]

There's an art to laying down size as I learned from an old friend many years ago. He died a few years ago sadly at the age of sixty. I preferred LaFranc's slow size, thinned with a couple of drop of turps and a dash of primrose yellow 2-shot to give it just enough of a tint so you can see where you've brushed. Thinner absolutely is better, otherwise if it's too thick, your gold will not be as brilliant as it should be. Too thick and the gold will absorb the oil in the size and give it a duller finish, what I refer to as drowning. Surface gilding you can get away with some slop, but if you are going to spin it, it's critical that you have a consistent thickness to your size. Otherwise you can burn the gold when engine turning.

Gold requires patience. My rule of thumb...When you think the tack is ready, wait another half hour! Nothing will ruin gold faster than rushing it.

 

[signmeup]

I want to assure you guys that the final coat of size is not too thick. The thick first coat is overnight dry and the second coat is the proper thickness. I get a brilliant shine out of my gilding. The problem is that the second coat of Rolco beads up on the first coat like it's contaminated with silicone. Washing down the dry first coat with mineral spirits removes whatever this contaminated layer is and allows the second coat to go on as intended. This makes me think it's a wax.... (mineral spirits are very good at removing wax.) Rolco assured me there was no wax in their product.

 

[Gino]

I've never heard of size beading up on itself.

I prefer regular slow size. I like the window of time it allows me. Also, like mentioned it will flow out and become almost perfectly smooth in every case. It also will give you more time to deal with certain air/humidity lack of humidity and other incidentals so you can lay your gold down and get your brilliance. I've many times with both quick and slow size have had to go back and re-size a job.

Missing that window or as in your case... purposely putting on a second coat[/I...] will always require a second application and I've never seen a beading up. Do you think something could've been on there or you mixed something wrong into the cup or maybe your brush was contaminated or maybe even your palate was contaminated ??

 

[signmeup]

Thanks Gino. This Rolco stuff flows out really nicely. (I still don't see how a "smear" of anything will flow)
I dipped the size right out of the can so it's not anything to do with a cup. I use the lid of the can as a palate so that's covered. Maybe the brush has something in it... I keep the brushes suspended in mineral spirits... the recommended thinner for Rolco.

Whatever it is, it it can be remedied by washing the offending area with mineral spirits. It just makes me nervous to think I might have to redo this stuff a few years down the road. Guess I'll have to go back to one coat.

 

[Si Allen]

The reason slow size flows out so well is because it is oil based while fast size is varnish based.

 

[Gino]

Speaking of various sizes....... and I'm not going into the gutter with this , but has anyone ever tried stale beer for size ?? A guy we had working for us up until a few years ago was practically a master with gold leaf. He used to do churches and fire engines out the ying-yang his whole life.

They ran out of size doing a church one time and this is what he told me.

They would spend close to 10 to 12 hours a day gilding this church. Lotsa gold going in there. After they were finished they'd go hit up the bar for a late supper and take a few 6-paks back to the room with them. Well, they ran out of size and one of them had the bright idea to go back to the room and get some of the old beer and they painted that on and went on their merry way. It worked just fine, had a much shorter dry time, but he said they checked every so often and they never had a problem.... even after 20 some years.

He explained how many things you can use for size and I just couldn't believe it. We never used any in OUR shop, but I always wanted to try some of the other items. ​

 

[mrchips]

I've never double coated my size tho I know several who do.

That said, my only thought on this problem is this.....

All size is designed to be very high gloss leading to a brillant gild. Most, if not all, enamels have a tough time sticking to a high gloss surface and that's why it's wise to scuff before a second application to "break the surface tension". This I learned from Kent Smith.

I'm guessing that a scuff with a gray or white 3M scuff pad would do the trick. As far as a "smudge" coat, I always see some heavier areas of size when I first apply (very thinly) and they do disappear shortly......so I guess it does "flow" a bit.

Your wiping with thinner may be giving you the same effect by softening the underlying size a bit and giving it some tack.

Scuff or thinner seems to to give you the desired results so that just might be your solution.

BTW, I just apply 1Shot with hardner as my base enamel for a high gloss for my gild base and scuff.

Hope this is of some help.

Joe,

Makin Chip$ and Havin Fun!

 

[signmeup]

Thanks for the post Joe. I'm going to do some testing on this size over the weekend. I'll try it over alupanel and the paint I used on the lettering and see if I can isolate some cause for this. Maybe it doesn't like going over latex paint? Rolco basically said, "That's odd." and I haven't heard anything since. Oh, they also suggested I use Rolco "burnish primer" and see if it worked over that. They didn't have any at the hardware store in Berwick though.

I will keep the board posted on my findings through this thread.

 

[mrchips]

"Maybe it doesn't like going over latex paint."

Is it waterborne "latex" or acrylic?

It does make a big difference.

Joe,

Makin Chip$ and Havin Fun!

 

[signmeup]

"Maybe it doesn't like going over latex paint."

Is it waterborne "latex" or acrylic?

It does make a big difference.

Joe,

Makin Chip$ and Havin Fun!

I don't know just what it is. I use Pittsburgh Sun Proof house and trim paint. It works fine with One Shot size. Maybe the Rolco leaches something out of the Sun Proof that the One Shot doesn't. They do seem to have different solvents in them.