High Per. Vinyl Failing In Winter

[Danny Dean]

High perf vinyl has started peeling in winter, on propane gas tanker trucks. mystifies me. I am getting extreme good adhesion after cleaning thoroughly with low voc wax and grease remover (2 types are used.) rinsing thoroughly and alcohol and windex wiping. Such good adhesion I gotta pull like hell, and even have to remover mask tape along top because it will tear as I pull the premask. Absolutely no lifting of corners as I peel. So I know it is not adhesion problem. I'm thinking it hasn't had enough time outdoors in heat and sun to adequately set ahdesive, so when the truck washer with his pressure washer comes by, he's washing at an angle to the vinyl and possibly too close.. The vinyl right next to the lifted areas is NOT loose at all. This tells me it is t5he prerssure washer. Any of you guys have this happen in winter? Do you think my views are correct? Awesome customer, which I'm uneasy about blaming on the pressure washer dude. thanks

 

[ikarasu]

It's probably not because of it, but your actually not supposed to use Windex to clean before applying. It eats glue (or so I'm told). We used to always use Windex to clean, and never had a problem... But apparently 3m will analyze a failed vinyl if your doing warranty, and deny if they find Windex residue.

If it's lifting at the bottoms / sides, it probably is. If it's also lifting at the tops, unless he's washing from the top down, you can. Rule him out.

If it's just bottom / sides.. use it as a proof as to its the pressure washer guy.


[Edit] Fixed a typo, and removed window perf mentions.

 

[Bradley Signs]

Is this High PERFormance, or PERForated window vinyl your talking about?

 

[Billct2]

He's talking about high performance (cast) vinyl on propane tank trucks (don't think anyone, even some of the newbies here, would put perforated vinyl on a metal truck).
And yeah, they say no windex, but I've never (in 30 years) had vinyl fail because the surface was cleaned with windex. But best to do what you do and stop after the alcohol wipe.
I think it's an issue with the cold (and propane tanks are cold even when it's warm out) combined with the pressure washing. I've done tank trucks and even though I warn about no pressure washing they still do, and there is usually no problem.

 

[ikarasu]

Slip of mind. Was thinking your window perfing the windows for some reason!

Do you post heat? The company we've done propane tankers for has strict rules, but we're allowed to use a special heat gun that doesn't produce sparks. And we only do it when the propane tank is empty. Even then, it's still cold... We heat up where we're dealing, then post heat it to allow it to adhere better.

Other than that, I still think it's a pressure wash issue. While most of the time it can be fine, if he's hitting the right spot it's bound to peel up.

 

[Snydo]

Windex does contain a small amount of wax which is why its not ideal for surface prep, if you do a thorough ISO wipe down after you should be fine.
I agree with the OP about time for the glue to set, I'm straight east of you a few hundred miles and its been -10 degrees midday -If you install it and then it gets pulled outside that glue and metal experience nearly a 100 degree temperature shift instantly, which I have to believe might cause issues. Then the power sprayer puts it to the test.

 

[printhog]

Windex and similar agents may contain silicones that interfere with adhesion. The last chemical you should use before application is isopropyl alcohol. 70 to 90 percent. Let it dry. Then apply. As for any exposure to pressure washing, hasta la vista to warranty. No coverage. Customer fault.

Propane tankers have an unusual issue. They're subject to dramatic surface cooling when loading. Often dropping below freezing even in summer conditions. This hot/cold snap acts to sever the adhesive flow. The thick steel of the tank seldom if ever gets above 70 degrees, so the adhesive never gets a chance to properly flow and set unless you use a heat gun on an empty tank in hot summer conditions. And it's slow going. Use an infra red temperature gauge to read the surface temp at install. Be above 68 degrees for 2 mil. And re squeegee every edge with heat applied.. adhesive set temperatures for most 2 mil vinyls are above 140 degrees and below 200.

I've lettered them in both paint and vinyl for 40 years. They do have failures even with paint. Particularly if you have any defect in the application procedure.

Before you go any further.. watch the pressure washer guy in action. I'll bet he's contributing by hitting the graphics on edge vs at 90 degrees, basically removing them prematurely.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

 

[geb]

Like mentioned, windex had been a problem for me when I first started, quickly learned not to use it. Agree pressure washer, I've been told try to wash straight on, go gently.

George

 

[lbpalm]

It's probably not because of it, but your actually not supposed to use Windex to clean before applying. It eats glue (or so I'm told). We used to always use Windex to clean, and never had a problem... But apparently 3m will analyze a failed vinyl if your doing warranty, and deny if they find Windex residue.

If it's lifting at the bottoms / sides, it probably is. If it's also lifting at the tops, unless he's washing from the top down, you can. Rule him out.

If it's just bottom / sides.. use it as a proof as to its the pressure washer guy.


[Edit] Fixed a typo, and removed window perf mentions.

I believe that solvents or cleaners such as Windex-type glass cleaners, Rainex, etc., also contain ammonia which is destructive to the adhesive in vinyl media.

Also, sealing the edges could help if edge lift due to pressure washing turns out to be a factor.

 

[ikarasu]

3M Edge Sealer Tape 8914 Edge tape. Not sure how well it'd work against a pressure washer though... Might help with propane tankers though, never had to use it myself, but our area gets pretty warm.

 

[lbpalm]

Not tape.
I was thinking of a liquid surface sealant like 3M 051128-82018 Clear 3950 Edge Sealer.
If concerned about edge appearance, mask edges before application and remove mask before the sealant is fully dry (but not runny which will ruin the edge).
It has worked well for us in similar situations (trailers).

3M 3950 Liquid Edge Sealer | FELLERS

 

[CSOCSO]

Hi there. In Florida some food truck builders asked us (sign shops) to stop wrapping the tanks completely because propane gas places will refuse to fill them. These tanks sweats. It might show premature failure and sweat when filled hence the refusal but it is possible that the vinyl failing just because of that.

 

[lbpalm]

Hi, interesting...
Sweating, - does that mean some of the tank's gas is dissolving out thought the tank walls and becoming entrapped under the vinyl?
- Are they refusing due to static discharge concerns of the above?

 

[CSOCSO]

Not sure what is the exact explanation. The foodtruck company who always asks me to wrap their trucks started to build a metal box for the tanks. I can fully wrap the box and nothing goes on the tank. Might wanna email some propane gas filling companies. Might tell you something smart. By the way when you wrap a tank. Do you wrap the top part too? Or just the perfect round /cylindrical part?
Don't clean anything ever with windex. I just use straight up alcohol from home depot. You can always lock the seam on the tank with 3m clear tape.

 

[Danny Dean]

Thank you so much for your input fellas. It is very valuable to me. I knew they underwent serious temperature changes during filling too. Question is how to roll in there right when a guy is pressure washing. We just went through a warmer muddy time around here, and I know they were pressure washing like heck on them trucks .

 

[Danny Dean]

It's just big black letters on white tanker. Like I said excellent adhesion always.

 

[boxerbay]

the tanks sweat due to differences of temperature inside the tank vs outside the tank + humidity in the air. like glass of ice cold drink sweats on the outside. also those large metal tank expand and contract with heat and cold. liquid edge seal can help PW.

 

[jfiscus]

Hold on, start with giving us ALL the info on the job:
Exactly WHAT high performance vinyl are you using? Printed & laminated or just cut vinyl?
What surface are you applying it to? Painted tank or stainless steel tank? Maybe supply a photo of it.
Can you show us a photo of the lifting and where it is occuring?

Windex is bad, do not use windex when preparing surface for install.
Pressure washers are bad also, especially in winter when adhesives are frozen.

 

[Danny Dean]

Oracal regular 751 vinyl. It has always been great for me. Its a painted (epoxy, nice surface) tank. Yes, I will stop using windex, but I always do 2 wipes with alcohol after the windex.
thanks jfiscus

 

[Frank Linson]

When you get done and warm the vinyl could you, after squeegeeing the lettering, use a steamer to warm the lettering, then put a backing sheet on the lettering to squeegee over? It would have the lettering set, but not have any flame just hot steam, then a paper overlay so as not to slide the film. I'd ditch the Oracal, but that's just me. Never had any luck with 751 or any of it. We don't EVER recommend pressure washing of any films unless its to rinse off bucke washing with a mitt from 3 feet away. We do lots of concrete trucks and use Hexis Suptac or Arlon colors for cut vinyl and have no failures. The concrete trucks are brushed with acid to get splatters off the drums. No failures. 18 years. No failures, no pressure washers no Armorall, no Windex and certainly no Rainex, that is a surface treatment not a cleaner. Best of luck and let the customer know with a disclaimer that you are not at fault.