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Hot Laminate with Aqueous Ink

Discussion in 'Hewlett Packard' started by Splescia82, Mar 2, 2010.

  1. Splescia82

    Splescia82 New Member

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    Hi - I'm currently using the HP Designjet 5500 with dye-based ink and using cold, pressure-sensitive laminate. I find cold laminate to be very expensive. I want to switch to hot if I can. I'm only making temporary signage that will be tossed after about one week.

    When researching laminators, I came across a manufacturer that told me heat from a laminator can cause oils from the dye to come through and keep the laminate from sticking. He called it "De-lamination." He wanted to sell me an eco-solvent printer instead.

    Has anyone had this problem? I'm looking into either the GBC Titan 1244 or the Ledco 44" Duel Hot roll/mounter. Both machines have hot and cold capabilities.

    Thanks in advance for any help you can give me.

    -Sara
     
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  2. BigfishDM

    BigfishDM Merchant Member

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    Well your going to have to laminate both sides as opposed to only one side with PS laminate. You will only be able to print on colorbond as no other product will hold up to the heat your going to use for thermal laminate. I can get you great PS lams for only $0.15 a sq.ft
     
  3. Splescia82

    Splescia82 New Member

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    What about if I buy thermal foam board and run the media through the machine mounting it onto the board?
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2010
  4. BigfishDM

    BigfishDM Merchant Member

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    The laminator you have to buy will be expensive and your finishing options will be limited. Cold lamination is what 90% of this industry typically uses. What excactly is it you print? I have not had much experience with thermal boards.
     
  5. BigfishDM

    BigfishDM Merchant Member

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    FYI I have the dye inks for the HP for $159 if that helps get your cost lower
     
  6. Splescia82

    Splescia82 New Member

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    I just print 24 x 36" foam board signs and small vinyl signs that are placed on bus windows. Right now, I'm using the GBC Cantena (which used to be the Eagle 105). I run the media through using artic gloss on top with a mounting adhesive on the bottom that I use to mount the signs to the foam board - essentially making a large sticker.

    GBC told me they've stopped production on the 2 1/4" core, gloss laminate I use. I've looked everywhere and no one has that size core anymore - it's all 3". I've tried placing 3" core (150') gloss in the machine and it doesn't fit.

    So in looking at the prices, hot laminate the best way to go. I'm not concerned with finishing - we'll only use it to make these temporary signs.
     
  7. Splescia82

    Splescia82 New Member

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    If I mount only 1 side with the PS laminate, the laminate that has nothing matching underneath it will stick to the rollers.
     
  8. BigfishDM

    BigfishDM Merchant Member

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    Have you tried using an adhesive paper or vinyl so you dont have to use mounting adhesive?
     
  9. Gino

    Gino Premium Subscriber

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    First of all..........Welcome from PA………………..


    Anyway….. I might be barking up the wrong tree here, but to my knowledge when dealing with aqueous inks… there are no oils in them…. hence the word ‘Aqueous’.

    Hot laminate cannot be used in conjunction with vinyl printed media, which in your case would be ‘Coated Stock’. Regardless, coated or non-coated the high temperatures will not work with vinyl. You need cold or mildly warm with a laminator that has a roller that will heat up to about 120° to help prevent silvering.
     
  10. Splescia82

    Splescia82 New Member

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    Any possibility of a low-heat film working for my purpose? something that works well with the coated media?

    You bring up a great point - I would think Aqueous stands for water-based.

    I have not tried an adhesive paper. Right now, with the pressure sensitive film I'm using, I have to have something underneath to match it, or else it will stick to the rollers. The best solution to that is the mounting adhesive. What would I place on the bottom roller to match it if I didn't use that?
     
  11. BigfishDM

    BigfishDM Merchant Member

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    Just put your print onto a piece of sintra or a laminated piece of cardboard then run put your print on top of that before you run it through the laminator and trim it away when your done. That way the lam will stick to the board and not the rollers.
     
  12. Splescia82

    Splescia82 New Member

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    It seems like the mounting adhesive would save a lot of extra time and effort. It might be a little more pricey, but so is the adhesive paper.

    Does everyone use the mounting adhesive with cold laminate or do they use the technique with the cardboard?
     
  13. BigfishDM

    BigfishDM Merchant Member

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    You tell me what you pay for your mounting adhesive, the product you print on, and your laminate and I will show you how to get your cost down ok.
     
  14. StopSignGraphics

    StopSignGraphics Active Member

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    Would encapsulation be an option? You can run a 10 mil hot laminate on one side and a 5 mil hot on the other. The final product would be about as stiff as credit card. Would that work for your bus signs?
     
  15. wes70

    wes70 Very Active Member

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    A little off topic, but you mentioned using dye ink. How long does the prints last until you notice fading? You should consider switching to pigment inks and the prints will last much longer.
     
  16. Splescia82

    Splescia82 New Member

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    Wes70 - When I print on color fast adhesive vinyl, the signs fade in a couple of months (I throw them away after about a week anyway). I usually print on a glossy paper stock that I always laminate - and those last for years (indoor). All of my signs are thrown away after about 1 week of use. I never need them to last longer than that.

    StopSignGraphic - I don't need to laminate the vinyl. The problem is figuring out:
    1. If I can use heated laminate on coated paper media for my Aqueous Printer
    2. How to mount the laminated media onto foam board in an easy and productive way

    Hey all - I just want to say thanks for taking the time to help. It's truly appreciated.
     
  17. Gino

    Gino Premium Subscriber

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    May I ask you a personal question Splec ??


    Are you some sort of a sign shop.... or an in-house designer and printer for some department stores or some other type of stores ??
     
  18. oakcitysigns

    oakcitysigns Member

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    For years, I did it this way:

    Coat the foam board with adhesive and trim excess. I used to do this 100 sheets at a time to have some ready. Sometimes would have a couple days worth, sometimes a couple weeks... depending on workload.

    Print on HP 2500 with the cheapest paper possible (not my decision). And since my boss would only order the cheapest paper possible, I'm not certain how this will work on specially coated products.

    Mount print (totally cold) to pre-coated foam board.

    Laminate hot (250 deg) and trim excess laminate.

    The critical things to remember are to make sure your roll stock isn't more than 3-4" wider than the board, and leave as little space between boards as possible when running through the laminator. Getting laminate, and especially adhesive sucked down into the rollers is a nightmare.
     
  19. Splescia82

    Splescia82 New Member

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    I'm the in-house designer & printer for a company that manages transportation.

    Oakcitysigns - LOL I know what you mean about getting laminate stuck to the rollers. I've seen it happen! It happened with PS laminate and my company had to get someone to take apart the machine and cut the laminate off. To this day, there are still gashes on the rollers. That's also another reason to purchase a new laminator - the rollers won't work with hot laminate because of those gashes. The machine is so old - the rollers are worth more to replace than the machine itself.

    When you coated the board with adhesive, did you use spray mount or some other type of adhesive?

    I was also told about a funny term they use - It's called "Soldiers." It's when you take a piece of foam board and cut it up to go in between the boards.

    I have sales reps from GBC assuring me that they sell media for Aqueous printers that are made to work with hot laminate. Is this true? Or does the laminate peel off after a couple of days?
     
  20. BigfishDM

    BigfishDM Merchant Member

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    There are only a couple products you can use for thermal, but for what your going to use it for you should be fine just printing on Heavy Weight Coated Bond which will work with thermal laminate.
     
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