How Concerned should I be about Gassing Out a print?

[bob]

I don't know what the debate is.

Printer manufacturers themselves tell you to offgas. Each ink has its own recommendations...

...merciful deletia...

Thank you Dr. Science...

As far as recommendations for the mysterious outgassing, likewise does each media manufacturer have some sort of specifications. Whatever time is specified by whomever to allow the various outgassing dwarves to toil at their labors is merely a ploy to limit culpability under whatever functionally worthless warranty they might provide.

If some manufacturer, be it of ink, media, or jungle juice, states that prints using their product must be left to outgas for some specified, you have some sort of failure you want to blame on their product period of time and you cannot show, the burden of proof being on you, that you let the print lay quiescent for the prescribed period of time they're off the hook. They've tattooed this chimerical notion of outgassing onto the collective conscious so indelibly that specimens such as yourself mindlessly accept it. Worse, you cite as proof of the phenomenon the injunctions of the various manufacturers.

This has far more to do with business than reality. Merely because any of all of these people recommend outgassing for a period of time does not make outgassing a reality.

As far as automotive paints, when you can apply vinyl depends very much on what coating was used. Lacquer or enamel based. If lacquer you can slap it on right away. If enamel you might want to pause until at least the surface has cured a mite. However long that might be.

 

[equippaint]

Thank you Dr. Science...

As far as recommendations for the mysterious outgassing, likewise does each media manufacturer have some sort of specifications. Whatever time is specified by whomever to allow the various outgassing dwarves to toil at their labors is merely a ploy to limit culpability under whatever functionally worthless warranty they might provide.

If some manufacturer, be it of ink, media, or jungle juice, states that prints using their product must be left to outgas for some specified, you have some sort of failure you want to blame on their product period of time and you cannot show, the burden of proof being on you, that you let the print lay quiescent for the prescribed period of time they're off the hook. They've tattooed this chimerical notion of outgassing onto the collective conscious so indelibly that specimens such as yourself mindlessly accept it. Worse, you cite as proof of the phenomenon the injunctions of the various manufacturers.

This has far more to do with business than reality. Merely because any of all of these people recommend outgassing for a period of time does not make outgassing a reality.

As far as automotive paints, when you can apply vinyl depends very much on what coating was used. Lacquer or enamel based. If lacquer you can slap it on right away. If enamel you might want to pause until at least the surface has cured a mite. However long that might be.

Is this like the companies selling the laminate telling everyone that you HAVE to laminate every print?
We had a water truck come in the other day to paint that we painted 5 years ago. It has one of our company stickers on the back, unlaminated red print and its still there and honestly doesn't look bad. Considering the abuse it has had being a rental water truck and being pressure washed a hundred times, I really question the need.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Unlaminated prints would have the ink "wash" away after 3-5 years. Laminated prints turn brown in the same time frame. I say this whole laminating thing is just a giant scam and we all bought into it...

 

[ikarasu]

Everything is a scam.

Roland, Seiko, they've spent millions upon millions in R&D, and they've decided for the print to be optimal it needs to offgass.

With HP touting how you don't need to offgass, all the eco solvent players would be saying their machines can do the same.. but they don't. You'd think they would be the first to release documentation saying you don't need to offgass, since it's the biggest leg up their compettors have against them.

I still don't know why people think it's a scam. Sure, sometimes it works without doing it... But there's absolutely zero reason for the manufacturer of the printer to tell you to offgass when you don't need to.

I guess you could argue Roland keeps releasing new ink that allows you to offgass less, so it's a way to get you to constantly buy new printers...

To each their own, I guess. Were all professionals (or try to be, at least) and should follow the manufacturer's specs, to give prints the longest possible lifetime, and not cut corners just because.

Your non offgassed print may last 5 years, but who knows.. maybe properly offgassed it could have lasted 10.

3M especially puts a lot of testing into their products on different machines and weather and situations.

Waiting a day to overlam doesn't hurt nothing and may extend the life of your print, whether it's by a day, or a month, or a year... Just doesn't make sense why people won't wait, when they have a choice to.

If you can't stand waiting, buy a printer that's actually designed to be laminated right away...

 

[Zendavor Signs]

Everything is a scam.

Roland, Seiko, they've spent millions upon millions in R&D, and they've decided for the print to be optimal it needs to offgass.

With HP touting how you don't need to offgass, all the eco solvent players would be saying their machines can do the same.. but they don't. You'd think they would be the first to release documentation saying you don't need to offgass, since it's the biggest leg up their compettors have against them.

I still don't know why people think it's a scam. Sure, sometimes it works without doing it... But there's absolutely zero reason for the manufacturer of the printer to tell you to offgass when you don't need to.

I guess you could argue Roland keeps releasing new ink that allows you to offgass less, so it's a way to get you to constantly buy new printers...

To each their own, I guess. Were all professionals (or try to be, at least) and should follow the manufacturer's specs, to give prints the longest possible lifetime, and not cut corners just because.

Your non offgassed print may last 5 years, but who knows.. maybe properly offgassed it could have lasted 10.

3M especially puts a lot of testing into their products on different machines and weather and situations.

Waiting a day to overlam doesn't hurt nothing and may extend the life of your print, whether it's by a day, or a month, or a year... Just doesn't make sense why people won't wait, when they have a choice to.

If you can't stand waiting, buy a printer that's actually designed to be laminated right away...

Thank you. Finally, someone that is making some sense.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

[bob]

Everything is a scam.

Roland, Seiko, they've spent millions upon millions in R&D, and they've decided for the print to be optimal it needs to offgass.

With HP touting how you don't need to offgass, all the eco solvent players would be saying their machines can do the same.. but they don't. You'd think they would be the first to release documentation saying you don't need to offgass, since it's the biggest leg up their compettors have against them.

I still don't know why people think it's a scam. Sure, sometimes it works without doing it... But there's absolutely zero reason for the manufacturer of the printer to tell you to offgass when you don't need to.

I guess you could argue Roland keeps releasing new ink that allows you to offgass less, so it's a way to get you to constantly buy new printers...

To each their own, I guess. Were all professionals (or try to be, at least) and should follow the manufacturer's specs, to give prints the longest possible lifetime, and not cut corners just because.

Your non offgassed print may last 5 years, but who knows.. maybe properly offgassed it could have lasted 10.

3M especially puts a lot of testing into their products on different machines and weather and situations.

Waiting a day to overlam doesn't hurt nothing and may extend the life of your print, whether it's by a day, or a month, or a year... Just doesn't make sense why people won't wait, when they have a choice to.

If you can't stand waiting, buy a printer that's actually designed to be laminated right away...

Right, and if there's no such thing as magic then what were all those alchemists doing? Your argument for the existence of the phenomenon is beyond lame.

 

[ikarasu]

Right, and if there's no such thing as magic then what were all those alchemists doing? Your argument for the existence of the phenomenon is beyond lame.

So... What? Are you trying to compare the chemists today to alchemists before? As in in 500 years, we'll look back and think they were idiots and didn't know what they were talking about with outgassing?...

This is why I give up on some conversations. Some people dig their feet in the sand, and refuse to accept anything but what they deel is right, despite what printer the manufacturer who spends millions says his own machine needs to offgass. Vinyl manufacturer who spends millions testing says when using said machine, you do in fact need to offgass. Science also supports that solvent doesn't just fully evaporate in minutes, and common sense says if you trap said solvent behind a laminate, where else will it.be able to go besides into the glue, or through the laminate?

There comes a point when you have to ask yourself, if everyone around you who actually dedicated themselves to the field says one thing, no matter how strongly against it... Perhaps you MIGHT be wrong.


I'll leave it at that. I'm sure when this comes up again in a few weeks by someone else, we can argue it once again. But If you guys want to listen to the Company that sells you the printer and actually has a lab they do tests in, and the company that makes your material and has a lab that tests their product and printer in... The ones with millions of dollars spent into it, or "Bob", whos argument is about alchemists, your choice!

 

[Johnny Best]

These companies that spend millions, are they the same ones who do not have warning signs about the dangers of being exposed to the VOC that comes off the ink when printing. Or put the phrase "Eco" in front of solvent to make it sound earth friendly?
Or heating and cutting pvc with a tablesaw exposure will give you a risk of cancer. Just like the ads of the 50s showing doctors smoking cigarettes.
And 3M, they had over 300,000 lawsuits for defective masks they sold for removing asbestos.
Maybe it is hot today where some people are and standing on the sand at the beach.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

These companies that spend millions, are they the same ones who do not have warning signs about the dangers of being exposed to the VOC that comes off the ink when printing. Or put the phrase "Eco" in front of solvent to make it sound earth friendly?
Or heating and cutting pvc with a tablesaw exposure will give you a risk of cancer. Just like the ads of the 50s showing doctors smoking cigarettes.
And 3M, they had over 300,000 lawsuits for defective masks they sold for removing asbestos.
Maybe it is hot today where some people are and standing on the sand at the beach.

For the last 100 years or so humans have exposed themselfts to endless chemicals that we have never interacted with before. It's amazing we are tolerating everything so well...or appearing to... We have no idea the ling term effects of any of this crap.

 

[equippaint]

So... What? Are you trying to compare the chemists today to alchemists before? As in in 500 years, we'll look back and think they were idiots and didn't know what they were talking about with outgassing?...

This is why I give up on some conversations. Some people dig their feet in the sand, and refuse to accept anything but what they deel is right, despite what printer the manufacturer who spends millions says his own machine needs to offgass. Vinyl manufacturer who spends millions testing says when using said machine, you do in fact need to offgass. Science also supports that solvent doesn't just fully evaporate in minutes, and common sense says if you trap said solvent behind a laminate, where else will it.be able to go besides into the glue, or through the laminate?

There comes a point when you have to ask yourself, if everyone around you who actually dedicated themselves to the field says one thing, no matter how strongly against it... Perhaps you MIGHT be wrong.


I'll leave it at that. I'm sure when this comes up again in a few weeks by someone else, we can argue it once again. But If you guys want to listen to the Company that sells you the printer and actually has a lab they do tests in, and the company that makes your material and has a lab that tests their product and printer in... The ones with millions of dollars spent into it, or "Bob", whos argument is about alchemists, your choice!

Im no tinfoil hat person but when you say everyone else is digging in you should also look at youself. I agree on what you say about companies paying people to determine this stuff and I also dont think that I am smarter or know better than them. But they have direction, guidelines and motivations which have been pointed out. Its hard to decipher today what are best practices, what is cya and what is laziness.
Best example I have is paint because thats what I know. Lets take VOCs and their regulations. So a paint says high solids 2.5voc/gal to meet regulations and mix ratio is 4:1:1. It may spray like crap at 1 part reducer but they can not say to use more reducer in it, even if they know it is needed or they can not call it a low voc product. So the hardliners think that mr chemist figured this out to be optimal for their work when in all actuality it was not. This whole wait to laminate is an out from any warranty claims. Just like car mfg did with 3k mile oil changes. This is why the magnusun moss warranty act was passed.

 

[Gino]

First, they are not spending millions on this research. They say it with authority and many to most people believe them.
Next, they are testing with simulated tests and getting averages. You think they print on all the different media's and put them into every possible outdoor situation and wait 5 or 6 years to relay the findings ??
Do you really believe each and every company has spent that money and printed to all the medias, too ??
Last, outgassing and curing are two very different animals. Please do not compare paint to ink. They are not at all related, other than they have lotsa colors available.

 

[bob]

So... What? Are you trying to compare the chemists today to alchemists before? As in in 500 years, we'll look back and think they were idiots and didn't know what they were talking about with outgassing?...

...merciful deletia...

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

The alchemist was an example if the fallacy 'Appeal to Authority', albeit not the best example. More generally stated "If all these people are pursuing X then this is somehow evidence of the existence of X." The fact the people are chasing after something says absolutely noting about the existence or nonexistence of whatever that thing might be.

If you hypothesize some phenomenon then at the very least you must define the mechanism whereby it could exist. Your hypothesis must be falsifiable. You must describe a critical experiment to confirm its existence. This experiment must also have the ability to disprove the existence of whatever it is you're after. Hypotheses are either confirmed or disproven, never proved.

Familiarize yourself with the Michelson-Morely experiment of, if memory serves, 1887 or thereabouts. This experiment was set up to confirm the existence of 'ether'. Not only did it fail to confirm the existence of this strange substance, it proved that it did not exist at all. This is considered the paradigm of a critical experiment.

 

[eahicks]

i have peeled a van that was (i assume) printed & laminated too quickly. The ink gassed into the paint & was permanently stained.

I have experienced this too...was only on the hood of a van we wrapped. Took the wrap off after 2 years and WOW a logo tattoo.

 

[Acerbinky]

Some of you guys are missing some basic points. Ive been doing signs for 15 years. 1 - cast or intermediate, 2 - Brand, RA or el cheapo. 3 - THE PRINTER and ink type, 4 - Print speed and Heat.