How do you do the design process?

[rushworks graphics]

Hi, my first "proper" post on here after my intro!
well, what i want to know from you all is....you go and see a job location, they tell you basically what they want and then you go about doing a few quick designs so they can see what you came up with. now, my question is this.......do you email the designs, and if so, whats to stop them giving other sign shops your designs so they can get a better quote? reson i ask is we were just in town doing another sign and had a design for a store near where we were, they were kinda funny with us and asked us to email the designs(i had my laptop with some designs to show them since i was 3 doors down) so, i think they may want to take my designs and put them around the other sign stores first.
how do you guys do it? and do you have people do this to you?

 

[Mosh]

If it is a custom design, we have a $75 per hour design fee (that will be included in the price of the sign if purchased from us). If they don't want to pay this up front then they are not allowed to take designs out of our shop. If they decide to pay it they can do what they want with the design.

 

[stickermonkey]

What I do is have a "proof sheet" set up so that I can plunk the artwork into it. I take the design, paste it into the proof sheet, convert it to a bitmap and then save it as a PDF and email the proof to the client or have them come in to review and sign the proof. All of my proof sheets, invoices and estimates have "legal wording" that tell the customer that the artwork is the property of "ME" and use of it will result in charges or legal proceedings. I've had to bill customers for design time before and this saved my ass. I don't work for free even if my competitors do, and I most certainly don't steal concepts or layouts from my competitors so if they use my concept from a quote or proposal...they are just asking to be sued!

I can send you a pdf of my proof sheets if you want to PM me your email addy.

Kyla

 

[Circleville Signs]

We take Mosh's position a bit further even.

Unless it is an established customer who I'm not concerned about walking away from a design, we do ABSOLUTELY NO DESIGN WORK until a deposit is in hand. I've been burned too many times, and have spent hundreds of hours doing designs for jobs that never come through. Simply isn't worth it. We have a portfolio book and people can get a feel for our capabilities from that. If that isn't enough for them, then they can go to another shop.

 

[Steve C.]

Get a 50% deposit before you do any design. I say that, and still continue
to get burned on a regular basis by being too trusting.

 

[rushworks graphics]

thanks all!! yeah, were making more of an effort as we just moved to a different town and are trying to establish a decent customer base here. so, i want to make sure i'm not doing the design/layout for free!!!! as i said, went in last week, had a chat with the customer, decided what they wanted and today when we went in as we were 3 doors down doing another sign they were to be honest rude and distant...shop was empty but they had no time for us! had to persude them to look at the designs we had come up with which was right their on the laptop!! got a feeling their going to post my designs about to get other quotes...little bit pissed to be honest!
oh and stickermonkey...will take you up on your kind offer! thanks!!

 

[Poconopete]

http://puddingpdf.com/
Show nothing without a deposit. Hookers don't give free samples, why should we?

 

[rushworks graphics]

hookers don't give free samples!!!! lol....oh well, gotta think of something else to do this weekend then! :scream: my wife says i'm real tight with money..i don't like to pay for anything!!!!!!!

 

[SignManiac]

If you're married, you're paying for EVERYTHING!

 

[rushworks graphics]

ok, heres a question then.....you go into a store and ask if they want any signage etc....they say yeah, actually we do! ok, so, heres what we want etc can you do it? sure no worries, let me get some mockups to you and see what you think...now, thats going to be a $25 deposit agaist the overall cost of the sign please.........
if they agree, great...away you go....but if they say, hang on, i don't know you, i haven't seen any proofs and you want money upfront! no thanks..... do you then walk away form the job or do you bite your tounge and say well ok, forget the deposit, i'll send you the proofs later on then.

 

[Circleville Signs]

You are approaching things WAY out of kilter.

If you are out cold calling, you shouldn't be offering "mock-ups". There are several reasons for this, not the least of which is you are devaluing your design expertise and services.

When I am out cold calling, I am not trying to make a sale on the spot - sometimes it happens, but not very often (once in every 40-50 stops maybe). I am trying to raise awareness of who we are and what we do so that when someone DOES have a need, we will be front of mind.

Now, for those instances when it DOES happen, yes - I ask for a deposit before we begin any work. Usually that deposit doesn't happen right then though. What normally happens is I have a conversation about what their needs are as well as what they are trying to accomplish. I try and get a feel for budget. I then get an email address and go back to the shop where I put together a QUOTE. I then email this this to the client along with a few examples of similar jobs we have done previously if applicable. Once they give us the go ahead on the quote, we collect a deposit and start the job.

It really all boils down to how you present yourself. If someone asked me for a $25 deposit I'd laugh them out of my shop. Why? Because it is OBVIOUS that THEY don't value their services - why should I?

We require a 50% deposit to start any job over $500. Under $500 we require payment in advance. And yes, if a customer doesn't like that then they can go find someone else to take advantage of.

 

[rushworks graphics]

yeah, thanks gary. basically my wife who runs the business side of the comapny was out handing out business cards and getting a "feel " for the area, out promoting the business, letting people know were here and what we can do. it just happened that this perticular store wanted a sign doing.
my wife took some details, i was told what they wanted, i went over a few days later and spoke with the store owner and was shown what they wanted etc. i told them i would get back to them with some ideas and once they decided what they wanted i would give them a quote and we would do the sign if they were happy with the quote.
when we were in the area today they were basically very rude and had no time for us as they were busy! its a hair salon which at the time had no customers in at all and they were standing around! took some doingjust to get them to look at the mockups we had on the laptop which we had already pulled up before we went into the store so they didn't have to wait around for it to bootup! now they want all mockups sent via email........this is the reason for the post........got a feeling they are going to use or designs and put them around for others to quote on!!

 

[mark galoob]

2 things...

they are either low IQ? ie stupid
or
not interested.

prob i would just flat out ask them if they were still interested...that way nobody's time gets wasted...

mark galoob

 

[Circleville Signs]

And that's why you do NOT DO DESIGN until you have a deposit. If the client has nothing invested on their end, they will devalue any work that you do on your end - plain and simple.

 

[Drip Dry]

Did they hear a price yet ? If so, and they want you to e-mail a proof, you can bet their going to shop your design around. 2 weeks from now you'll see your design on the sign, because they can always find it 10.00 cheaper.

You did the best you can... you showed a design... don't let them have anything unless they show you money. You may have to walk away, but at least you know you didn't help the competition with the hard part... design.

Now, easy for me to say... BUT like SteveC says

Steve C. Get a 50% deposit before you do any design. I say that, and still continue to get burned on a regular basis by being too trusting.

Boy, I hate to admit it, but I'm just as guilty.

 

[Joe Diaz]

It is all about trust. It is hard to trust someone you don't know. So you have to sell trust in addition to the job.

We have a sketch deposit. We sell it to the client as not an additional fee, but a down payment. It's our way of meeting the customer halfway. They need to trust us enough to invest some of the total cost of the project, and we can trust that they aren't going to take our artwork to shop around.... well, at least they are unlikely to shop around with our design if they have invested some money.

We don't need to do every potential job that comes in our door. If the customer can't trust us to do their job, then we don't have to do it. The best way for them to trust that we can do a good job, without us doing a lot of work before we even get the job, is for them to take a look at our portfolio. They want to gauge what we are capable of doing without paying a dime, all they need to do is visit our website.

If someone wants to do sketches for free, that's their call, but they can't get upset if they don't get a job and have spent all that time for nothing. If you are unsure on what to do, keep this in mind: Many of use collect money before doing the work, so it can be done.

 

[rushworks graphics]

thanks all....some real helpfull advice coming through this thread. as i have already done some designs....luckly something real simple and quick as thats what they wanted....i guess i'll have to play this one by ear...but for sure the next time i will be taking on advice from here...

 

[Just Another Sign Guy]

Great discussion and great answers Gary

 

[signswi]

Good to hear other shops that won't even sketch without a deposit. We still do a good amount of speculative design to land clients and it drives me crazy. Just Say No to Spec Work.

 

[schramm]

I kinda have it lucky as I get paid in full before I do anything except give them a price. Nothing that I do is not custom and nothing that I do is local so I require "up front payment for everything"! I would take the advise very serious as it is easy for someone to not follow through if they have nothing invested! I had out prices about 20-30 each and everyday of the week except Sunday and of that 18-20% eventually do something (could be months). But I don't even give samples for free. Each customer pays a minimum of $60 for a set of samples which is refunded if and when they purchase as long as they returned them. It never ceases to amaze me that people will pay that much and then dilly dally around ordering.

Get a deposit!!!