How do you handle color matching with clients?

[Signs91723]

I'm working for a new sign company and I'm trying to find ways to improve on the organization of our color matching for clients. We do not guarantee a 100% match as we do not use PMS inks but we try to match as closely as we can to PMS colors. We use a Roland VG2 540 and 640 which are regularly maintained. What is an effective way to keep track of colors with clients? What other tips are helpful with color consistency?

Currently I've started an excel sheet that lists the cmyk values, printer model, material and rip presets for each client. We also print out a sample and store them in a binder. Then we re-print these every 6-12 months to make sure everything is still matching. We have a color chart and do test prints beforehand to help with color issues. Some of this does take some time but I feel can be done in a better way. I'm still fairly new to the sign industry and I'm always trying to better my craft. I understand if some of this info may be kept secret to some however I wanted to reach out to the community for any and all tips. Thanks in advance!

 

[DPD]

Most times you've got to set the customer's expectations when selling the project. Colors are not easy and although I'm glossing over what I do I think you'll get the point. Eventually, you'll figure out what's best for your business.

I have mostly local customers and do two different things depending on local or non-local. Regardless of who specifies the color (me or them), if it's something I know the customer will be picky about then I march over to the local customer with my PMS and vinyl swatches in hand and show them the color specified. If it's a non-local customer, I print a small swatch and mail it out. I then call the customer (this is not something I manage via email) and explain the difficulties matching PMS when it's a printed graphic. If it's a vinyl job then I just have the customer pick a vinyl color from the swatch books - problem solved. The latter are just things I do from a customer service perspective but if I see that there could be further considerations I do something else. See what follows.

Now two things can happen: I print the color and it's exact (close is good too) or it's not close. I use I1 software to calibrate my printer profiles so if I believe I'm properly calibrated then I will try and tell Flexisign that when it sees the PMS color that it should print a different ink mix - one that I specify using my I1 to read in that particular PMS color. Sounds like a lot but it takes all of maybe 15 minutes. If after this I still don't like the color then I go back to the customer and ask the customer to purchase a prototype. Just a note, if I know the color is critical while selling the job then I will also sell a printed prototype. This way the customer sees what they're getting.

The thing is that you want to be upfront with the customer. If you can't meet the customer's expectations (usually this is with new customers) then don't take the job. It's just not worth the headache and you'll be giving the deposit money back and possibly getting a lousy review. You also don't want to spend your own money to meet those expectations i.e. you give away free prototypes. If the project is worth oodles of money then yes, I might even make one sign and take the risk (I've done that) but if the project is just worth a smidgen of money then ask the customer to purchase a prototype. By the way, selling prototypes can be a bit lucrative.

 

[2B]

We print paper along with signs, so we only use CYMK for ALL products, we use a CMYK color fan for quick referencing with the custom.
Make sure when you send a proof, you are proofing in the same color code you are printing in

Print your color chart(s) on your most common media, you can cross-reference what color codes are the "closest" on the different media.
We also print a few "difficult" colors on small swatches, this way IF the colors are vital, you can show them how colors can / do shift across the different media.

try to ensure the expectations meet the real-world capabilities you have. this is VITAL
refer back to the proofing stage, what they see is what they expect

remember color samples cost TIME, MATERIAL, EQUIPMENT, ETC.. we only print samples when they are paid for.
for a critical project that pays for color matching, yes we will print a data sheet and colors for future reference

printing samples every 6 months ???
How and where you store these samples will play a factor in the color accuracy over time.

 

[Signs91723]

We print paper along with signs, so we only use CYMK for ALL products, we use a CMYK color fan for quick referencing with the custom.
Make sure when you send a proof, you are proofing in the same color code you are printing in

Print your color chart(s) on your most common media, you can cross-reference what color codes are the "closest" on the different media.
We also print a few "difficult" colors on small swatches, this way IF the colors are vital, you can show them how colors can / do shift across the different media.

try to ensure the expectations meet the real-world capabilities you have. this is VITAL
refer back to the proofing stage, what they see is what they expect

remember color samples cost TIME, MATERIAL, EQUIPMENT, ETC.. we only print samples when they are paid for.
for a critical project that pays for color matching, yes we will print a data sheet and colors for future reference

printing samples every 6 months ???
How and where you store these samples will play a factor in the color accuracy over time.

Thanks for the advice. It's nice to see what other businesses do as well. I should have clarified that we only make these color samples for high priority clients that are very color specific. Since they do work with us over the years we include the color matching and use it for future orders. At a previous company I've added a color disclaimer in the proof as it can vary between monitors. We may add this along with a note that color charts are available in store.

 

[Signs91723]

Most times you've got to set the customer's expectations when selling the project. Colors are not easy and although I'm glossing over what I do I think you'll get the point. Eventually, you'll figure out what's best for your business.

I have mostly local customers and do two different things depending on local or non-local. Regardless of who specifies the color (me or them), if it's something I know the customer will be picky about then I march over to the local customer with my PMS and vinyl swatches in hand and show them the color specified. If it's a non-local customer, I print a small swatch and mail it out. I then call the customer (this is not something I manage via email) and explain the difficulties matching PMS when it's a printed graphic. If it's a vinyl job then I just have the customer pick a vinyl color from the swatch books - problem solved. The latter are just things I do from a customer service perspective but if I see that there could be further considerations I do something else. See what follows.

Now two things can happen: I print the color and it's exact (close is good too) or it's not close. I use I1 software to calibrate my printer profiles so if I believe I'm properly calibrated then I will try and tell Flexisign that when it sees the PMS color that it should print a different ink mix - one that I specify using my I1 to read in that particular PMS color. Sounds like a lot but it takes all of maybe 15 minutes. If after this I still don't like the color then I go back to the customer and ask the customer to purchase a prototype. Just a note, if I know the color is critical while selling the job then I will also sell a printed prototype. This way the customer sees what they're getting.

The thing is that you want to be upfront with the customer. If you can't meet the customer's expectations (usually this is with new customers) then don't take the job. It's just not worth the headache and you'll be giving the deposit money back and possibly getting a lousy review. You also don't want to spend your own money to meet those expectations i.e. you give away free prototypes. If the project is worth oodles of money then yes, I might even make one sign and take the risk (I've done that) but if the project is just worth a smidgen of money then ask the customer to purchase a prototype. By the way, selling prototypes can be a bit lucrative.

That makes a lot of sense as well. I appreciate the advice. I think we may try to mention that a sample can be purchased for small orders. We often try to stay away from those small headache jobs too. They can't get real frustrating.

 

[Z SIGNS]

Anything that is subjective like color matching is a PIA. It's a rabbit hole.
There is no such thing thing as exact color matching. Everything looks different.
If it's printed it looks different under different light conditions and materials used.
Good luck in trying to please the ones who decide if it's the right color.

The only real solution to color if you want to make signs is to be a creator not a replicator.
Being a replicator is a miserable job. Your at the mercy of the person who decides if your version of the color is correct.

If you are the creator the colors are yours nobody can tell you they are wrong.

Also as side note.
The exact shade of a color has nothing to do with the effectiveness of a sign.

 

[rjssigns]

Anything that is subjective like color matching is a PIA. It's a rabbit hole.
There is no such thing thing as exact color matching. Everything looks different.
If it's printed it looks different under different light conditions and materials used.
Good luck in trying to please the ones who decide if it's the right color.

The only real solution to color if you want to make signs is to be a creator not a replicator.
Being a replicator is a miserable job. Your at the mercy of the person who decides if your version of the color is correct.

If you are the creator the colors are yours nobody can tell you they are wrong.

Also as side note.
The exact shade of a color has nothing to do with the effectiveness of a sign.

This right here^^^^^^ An absolute rabbit hole.

Three things are needed to see color: An object, a light source and an observer. The first two are easy to control, the last not so much. You can get a dead match in your shop, send it to the client and they say it looks like crap.
Only way to mitigate that is to put a Pantone Lighting Indicator on the sample. If the client sees two colors on the indicator they need to move to lighting where the two colors match.

One thing I always ask my students is; "What is perfect color?" Some come at it from a technical standpoint getting a color match through profiling etc... Makes for a good discussion but all are wrong.
Perfect color is when the client cuts the check for the job.

 

[ColorCrest]

Some of this does take some time but I feel can be done in a better way.

You should know CMYK values, Pantone for example, are only gospel when various settings for workflow and the printing press setup is the same as used when Pantone printed their swatches on their press. Your printers are not setup as Pantone’s press. Also, RIPs expect to see strictly named Pantone colors, not CMYK values, so they can make best use color matching features to mimic Pantone colors. If, for some reason, an operator has changed a Pantone callout in the print document to CMYK, a gaping disconnect has occurred in the work flow for the RIP to automatically handle part of its job.

Further, there should be no reason to “re-print these every 6-12 months to make sure everything is still matching” because it should be routine that your printers stay in constant calibration from day-one.

Finally, although a spreadsheet is not a bad place for beginning to store special settings for production, an ideal place would be to keep such data in the root CRM record of the customer. This would enable that any time a work order line item is created for the customer, any items which use the specific color(s) will show operators what they need to know without having them reference yet another software app like Excel.

Forward ahead to “better ways.”

 

[ColorCrest]

With only an understanding of a very few basics, so-called rabbit holes can easily be turned into job-winning talking points.

 

[Signs91723]

You should know CMYK values, Pantone for example, are only gospel when various settings for workflow and the printing press setup is the same as used when Pantone printed their swatches on their press. Your printers are not setup as Pantone’s press. Also, RIPs expect to see strictly named Pantone colors, not CMYK values, so they can make best use color matching features to mimic Pantone colors. If, for some reason, an operator has changed a Pantone callout in the print document to CMYK, a gaping disconnect has occurred in the work flow for the RIP to automatically handle part of its job.

Further, there should be no reason to “re-print these every 6-12 months to make sure everything is still matching” because it should be routine that your printers stay in constant calibration from day-one.

Finally, although a spreadsheet is not a bad place for beginning to store special settings for production, an ideal place would be to keep such data in the root CRM record of the customer. This would enable that any time a work order line item is created for the customer, any items which use the specific color(s) will show operators what they need to know without having them reference yet another software app like Excel.

Forward ahead to “better ways.”

Very helpful points. I am very aware that our printers are not setup as a Pantone's press. Of course, clients don't always understand that. As far as printer calibration goes, we always hope that our techs maintain and keep it in constant calibration during service runs however that's not always the case. Along with machine repairs and issues this is the main reason we reprint our samples. It's better to be safe than sorry in my book.

We're currently implementing a new business management system so the CRM records are a very helpful piece of advice. As we're a smaller shop, some things run a bit differently than larger companies but we are always working to improve our workflow. Appreciate the help!

 

[ColorCrest]

I am very aware that our printers are not setup as a Pantone's press.

Care to say where the CMYK values you've listed in your spreadsheet originate?

As far as printer calibration goes, we always hope that our techs maintain and keep it in constant calibration during service runs however that's not always the case. Along with machine repairs and issues this is the main reason we reprint our samples. It's better to be safe than sorry in my book.

Well, there should be no "hope" about it. A routine (daily?) print of a quality evaluation file should readily show anyone the state of the printer just by visual inspection, no instruments required.

 

[Gino]

Red is red. Blue is blue. So on, down the road. You want it what color ?? Periwinkle vinca pastel blue..... oh you mean purple ?? Oops, lavender ?? We don't sell that color. Take it or leave it. On a scale of 1 to a thousand, we'll be within 2/1000's.

 

[Signs91723]

Care to say where the CMYK values you've listed in your spreadsheet originate?

Of course not! If our rip software doesn't re-create the Pantone color as accurately as we'd like, we adjust it in CMYK values and then note that in an excel sheet.

Well, there should be no "hope" about it. A routine (daily?) print of a quality evaluation file should readily show anyone the state of the printer just by visual inspection, no instruments required.

Our production team performs daily test prints. When we have a print head or other issue and a tech from the manufacturer comes in to repair it we sometimes have problems with print color/quality. Most times there is no difference or perhaps a slight one that we may not catch if we are busy. Having samples saves us many times so we can let the tech know that the machine was not calibrated correctly after maintenance.

 

[Signs91723]

Red is red. Blue is blue. So on, down the road. You want it what color ?? Periwinkle vinca pastel blue..... oh you mean purple ?? Oops, lavender ?? We don't sell that color. Take it or leave it. On a scale of 1 to a thousand, we'll be within 2/1000's.

Now that's a mindset I want to live by.

 

[bob]

Just print a Pantone, glossy coated, chart on whatever media you're using. What comes out of the printer is the truth. Not what's on your monitor, not what should come out, what DOES come out. Looking for a color? Find it on the aforementioned chart. If it's not exactly reresented but you find a colder a taste lighter and one a bit darker, choose the darker. Never forget, the printer is the truth.

 

[ColorCrest]

Of course not!

I'm accepting your answer as you don't know where they come from. That's another gaping disconnect as far as color management and the effort to save expenses.

If our rip software doesn't re-create the Pantone color as accurately as we'd like, we adjust it in CMYK values and then note that in an excel sheet.

Your RIP has a Pantone matching feature. Why not use it?

Our production team performs daily test prints. When we have a print head or other issue and a tech from the manufacturer comes in to repair it we sometimes have problems with print color/quality. Most times there is no difference or perhaps a slight one that we may not catch if we are busy. Having samples saves us many times so we can let the tech know that the machine was not calibrated correctly after maintenance.

I'm trying to be helpful but, from the quote above, I'll just suggest you could use some more information about some fundamentals and how to control the process more than you're currently used to.

Good luck.

 

[Heybetty]

Walk client around your building inside and outside with these two prints in-hand for the meaning of life color matching.

 

[Johnny Best]

Years ago I mixed Van Son inks to match pantone colors on printing press. It was mostly always 2 to 3 colors in parts to match up. Now when I got into digital with four colors and Illustrator .pdf files working with RGB and picking the pantone color it is easy. I do agree with Bob on printing a chart from your printer of all the pantone colors and picking the closest match to be a great idea. Grays are the hardest to hit because of what lighting you are in. Have been down the "rabbit hole" and taken the pills and that is a hit or miss but fun at the same time.
And like Gino says "red is red" but then there is vermillion to deal with!

 

[Signs91723]

I'm accepting your answer as you don't know where they come from. That's another gaping disconnect as far as color management and the effort to save expenses.

Apologies! I meant to type "Of course" as in I do not mind telling you. As I said, "If our rip software doesn't re-create the Pantone color as accurately as we'd like, we adjust it in CMYK values and then note that in an excel sheet." Unfortunately, not all printers are as accurate as we'd like them to be. However, our RIP does match many Pantone colors very closely so we do still use it. We use CMYK for more of the difficult ones.

I'm trying to be helpful but, from the quote above, I'll just suggest you could use some more information about some fundamentals and how to control the process more than you're currently used to.

Good luck.

Exactly why I'm here! Thanks for the help.

 

[Signs91723]

Years ago I mixed Van Son inks to match pantone colors on printing press. It was mostly always 2 to 3 colors in parts to match up. Now when I got into digital with four colors and Illustrator .pdf files working with RGB and picking the pantone color it is easy. I do agree with Bob on printing a chart from your printer of all the pantone colors and picking the closest match to be a great idea. Grays are the hardest to hit because of what lighting you are in. Have been down the "rabbit hole" and taken the pills and that is a hit or miss but fun at the same time.
And like Gino says "red is red" but then there is vermillion to deal with!

We do have a CMYK color chart for a majority of common combinations. A Pantone chart is a great suggestion as Bob mentioned. I will definitely look into doing that. Appreciate the advice!