Question How to get a better profile? Epson s80600, Onyx Thrive 19 and Xrite i1 Profiler

[rwinkie]

I've been struggling to get a profile that I really like, and I have a couple questions.

I created a profile in i1 Profiler and the initial profile looks ok, although I feel like the gamut should be bigger than it is. I compared to profiles created for me on my s30670, and the profile from the s30670 was wider in the cyan range, while naturally the 80600 has a better red and yellow range, but when I tried to acutally use the profile I created I wasn't pleased with the color accuracy, everything was very dull and dark amd greys had a magenta cast, not warm or cool, like flat out magenta. I ran the optimization and the gamut visualization got really ugly and bumpy and colors were suddenly way off, so I'm not sure what I did wrong there.

So I went to try out Onyx to create my profile and again, very dull and colors coming out darker than they should. I also noticed the muddy brown tone to the red and orange that I've seen a few people talk about. Also had very cool greys so I rant the g7 calibration and that helped a lot, but everything seems very dark still. I did the accuboost and again, everything got way worse. Not sure what I'm doing wrong procedurally when it comes to reiterizing.

I did not do a linearization as I took some advice and used the 80% overall ink limit suggestion from another member. Would I do better if I ran a linearization? Could that be the root of my dark colors?

Lastly, I don't know if it matters, but I'm using a matte vinyl that I feel has questionable print quality but meets my needs in every other aspect.

I really would like to do the Onyx training and learn a little more but the particular training I want to do isn't being offered right now.

Any way, I appreciate any advice. I attached some comparisons of the profiles as well.

 

[FrankW]

Dont use any values you have heard from somewhere, do the complete process as needed for your printer (profiling only with printers in contone mode, or completely with calibration - ink limits and linearisation - in halftone mode).

Have you really set the overall (total?) ink limit to 80%? You have decreased the possible ink limit (400% for a CMYK-Printer) by 80%. Of course your colors looks dull. Accuboost will not help you if restricting the gamut so much before (will only try to precisise the colours, will not expand gamut). Perhaps Chromaboost (in the profile build options) could help you making your pictures looking a little less dull, but the very first option will be to set a reasonable ink limit.

 

[rwinkie]

I'll try building a profile in Contone with ink limits set at 100% Logically I feel like if all of my colors are already too dark it could be an overinking problem as opposed to the opposite? Perhaps I need to reduce ink on certain colors but not all?

My specific issue with accuboost, is that there is a color shift and it's not a good one. The most notable shift is that the cyans go green, although I did see some issues with the gradients in yellows, a purple shift in the darker blues and some gradient issues in cyans. I do understand that optimazation and accuboost are not used to expand my gamut but rather makes the colors be more accurately reproduced within the profile.

 

[FrankW]

A high ink limit will not lead to colours that are to dark if the ICC-profile works correctly. Setting an ink limit is for avoiding bleeds, banding or drying issues, the colours are managed by the ICC-profile.

There are color management settings that could lead to color deviations. Very difficult to give a suggestion what could be wrong at your site, I‘m sorry but I‘m not familiar with the epson-printers.

Do you have any given profile eg from onyx which works better than your current results? If yes, try to reprofile it.

 

[Pauly]

Linearisation is important. - you shouldn't be skipping steps.
Except G7, that's absolutely useless for inkjets.

Follow everything that FrankW said.

 

[SignMeUpGraphics]

If you're using the Epson Contone profiling workflow, there is no linearization required or even possible.
I much prefer this over the Onyx workflow anyway. It's simpler and gives us better results. I've compared gamut plots back to back and we get a wider range and smoother dot pattern than the Onyx method.

 

[yannb]

This is how I create profiles for the 80600:

1. Load the media in the printer, and perform 'auto adjust' check nozzles etc
2. Generate and print the ink limit chart using Epsons IDF Chart Generator, independent of Onyx. Here you can select media type, resolution, number of passes. If you don't have it, ask your Epson dealer. This chart lets you define the ink limit per channel. All ink channels normally have the same IDF (Ink Density Factor). For example 3M's IJ35 matte vinyl has a IDF of 84% @ 720x720 8p HQ. If you cannot get hold of this application, look at the IDF of a similar profile.
3. In Onyx Media Manager, create a new media profile and use Epson Workflow. This uses Epsons own half toning module. No need to linearise. Within the media profile, create the print mode with the same settings you printed the chart with, and set the chosen ink density factor.
4. In i1Profiler, generate a CMYK ICC chart and output as TIFF
5. In Onyx, change the current media to the newly created one
5. In Onyx, open the CMYK chart and in the Job Editor, assign the new media profile. Very important: under Color Management be sure to select 'All ICC profiles off'
6. Print the chart
7. In i1Profiler, measure the chart. Epson's own profiles are created with M1 illuminant, and following settings: total ink 400%, full black off, intelligent black on, black start 30, max black 100, black curve Med, black width 50, contrast 0, saturation 30, neutralise 0, A to B and B to A tables medium, granularity 16 bit, smoothness 50, chromatic adaptation Bradford, profile version 2, white point default. Generate your ICC with these settings. You can of course generate multiple ICC's with various settings, and pick the one you like most.
8. In Onyx Media Manager, load the new ICC profile into the print mode.
9. The new print mode is now ready to be used.

If you have another rip, you can use the same ICC profile, as long as you use the Epson contone driver and set the same IDF.

Happy profiling!

 

[SignMeUpGraphics]

We do exactly what yannb does... minus the IDF part as we were never told about this tool. I want it now, as I always guess the IDF percentage based on another profile.
If you follow these instructions, you should get extremely good profiles.

 

[Saturn]

This is how I create profiles for the 80600:

Thanks for the detailed walkthrough yannb.

 

[studio10]

This is how I create profiles for the 80600:

1. Load the media in the printer, and perform 'auto adjust' check nozzles etc
2. Generate and print the ink limit chart using Epsons IDF Chart Generator, independent of Onyx. Here you can select media type, resolution, number of passes. If you don't have it, ask your Epson dealer. This chart lets you define the ink limit per channel. All ink channels normally have the same IDF (Ink Density Factor). For example 3M's IJ35 matte vinyl has a IDF of 84% @ 720x720 8p HQ. If you cannot get hold of this application, look at the IDF of a similar profile.
3. In Onyx Media Manager, create a new media profile and use Epson Workflow. This uses Epsons own half toning module. No need to linearise. Within the media profile, create the print mode with the same settings you printed the chart with, and set the chosen ink density factor.
4. In i1Profiler, generate a CMYK ICC chart and output as TIFF
5. In Onyx, change the current media to the newly created one
5. In Onyx, open the CMYK chart and in the Job Editor, assign the new media profile. Very important: under Color Management be sure to select 'All ICC profiles off'
6. Print the chart
7. In i1Profiler, measure the chart. Epson's own profiles are created with M1 illuminant, and following settings: total ink 400%, full black off, intelligent black on, black start 30, max black 100, black curve Med, black width 50, contrast 0, saturation 30, neutralise 0, A to B and B to A tables medium, granularity 16 bit, smoothness 50, chromatic adaptation Bradford, profile version 2, white point default. Generate your ICC with these settings. You can of course generate multiple ICC's with various settings, and pick the one you like most.
8. In Onyx Media Manager, load the new ICC profile into the print mode.
9. The new print mode is now ready to be used.

If you have another rip, you can use the same ICC profile, as long as you use the Epson contone driver and set the same IDF.

Happy profiling!

Thanks!

 

[Mata]

Did any others get the IDF chart generator from Epson? I've just found this post and eager to give it a try but I can't get hold of Epson. Can anyone post it on here so I can install it.

Thanks

 

[Graphic Extremes]

Found this with a simple google search:

Epson Print Layout | Epson US

Streamline Your Print Workflow with Epson Print Layout

epson.com

Comes with the program and Photoshop plugin

I can't upload the file as it is a self extracting executable file.

Also doesn't list the S80600 as a supported printer. Hope this is the right software you are talking about.

 

[Mata]

Found this with a simple google search:

Epson Print Layout | Epson US

Streamline Your Print Workflow with Epson Print Layout

epson.com

Comes with the program and Photoshop plugin

I can't upload the file as it is a self extracting executable file.

Also doesn't list the S80600 as a supported printer. Hope this is the right software you are talking about.

Thanks. I also found that but it’s not Epsons IDF chart generator unless they’ve renamed it.

I’ve always struggled limiting the ink so IDF software seems like it could help.

 

[Graphic Extremes]

Has anyone gotten any head way on this software. I asked the company that I bought my printers from last week and still haven't heard anything from them. The sales rep never heard of this software, and sent an email to her Epson rep.

 

[HercuLEAN]

Same here, we would love to get access to the IDF chart generator as we often find third party medias can have a higher IDF than 100% - for example we print a lot of canvas and use Fredrix and Breathing Color canvas and can push the IDF to 140 % and still see increasing chrome values, but we simply print and guess and check, so it would be better to get a program like the one referenced in the post above.

 

[Graphic Extremes]

Same here, we would love to get access to the IDF chart generator as we often find third party medias can have a higher IDF than 100% - for example we print a lot of canvas and use Fredrix and Breathing Color canvas and can push the IDF to 140 % and still see increasing chrome values, but we simply print and guess and check, so it would be better to get a program like the one referenced in the post above.

I just received the IDF, I will pm a link for you to get it

 

[BVG]

I just received the IDF, I will pm a link for you to get it

Can I grab a copy of the link please?

 

[Jeppe.Nielsen]

We do exactly what yannb does... minus the IDF part as we were never told about this tool. I want it now, as I always guess the IDF percentage based on another profile.
If you follow these instructions, you should get extremely good profiles.

The IDF tool is not available to everyone. Simply print the charts and reduce the Ink Density Factor wheen needed. Many vinyls don’t hold more than 70 IDF if you want to avoid bleed problems and ink pooling. Increase IDF for more chromatic colors. I learned from my ICC profiling that some patches repeatedly would show these problems, so I made a custom .eps file containing those specific CMYK combinations with hairline white and black lines in them to observe both bleed and ink pooling problems. My test strip is only 30 mm tall and about 900 mm wide. Then I just print it out with different IDF values (increment of 5) and choose my IDF limit. Then I print 2100 patches and measure them. If you use Epson Precision Dot CMYKlclmlmOR you will get good results. Glossy vinyls yield a much bigger gamut.

I use M0 as it is much faster, plus I don’t think there are too many optical brighteners in plastics, they are widely used in papers. M1 takes twice the time to measure…

On the Folex SI291 photo paper in 12-pass mode tou can achieve 98,2% af Pantone colors this way!

 

[Jeppe.Nielsen]

We do exactly what yannb does... minus the IDF part as we were never told about this tool. I want it now, as I always guess the IDF percentage based on another profile.
If you follow these instructions, you should get extremely good profiles.

The IDF tool is not available to everyone. Simply print the charts and reduce the Ink Density Factor wheen needed. Many vinyls don’t hold more than 70 IDF if you want to avoid bleed problems and ink pooling. Increase IDF for more chromatic colors. I learned from my ICC profiling that some patches repeatedly would show these problems, so I made a custom .eps file containing those specific CMYK combinations with hairline white and black lines in them to observe both bleed and ink pooling problems. My test strip is only 30 mm tall and about 900 mm wide. Then I just print it out with different IDF values (increment of 5) and choose my IDF limit. Then I print 2100 patches and measure them. If you use Epson Precision Dot CMYKlclmlmOR you will get good results. Glossy vinyls yield a much bigger gamut.

I use M0 as it is much faster, plus I don’t think there are too many optical brighteners in plastics, they are widely used in papers. M1 takes twice the time to measure…

On the Folex SI291 photo paper in 12-pass mode you can achieve 98,2% of Pantone colors this way!

 

[yannb]

Can I grab a copy of the link please?

Upon popular request, here’s the IDF tool tof the 80600: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1B5Vfg8dTz58SNHXHfhCS7sr1SQx46PjW/view?usp=share_link