Question HP Latex and how RIP's handle dimensional deformation due to heat

[madredfox]

Hi, I have a question regarding a issue we are experiencing with our HP Latex Printer.

Lets say one prints a job of 15 large rectangular labels and the print run is about 1100mm (40in) long. If the vinyl due to the heat that is being used while printing has a dimensional deformation, how does the RIP compensate for that?

If the vinyl has a dimensional shift and lets say becomes elongated by 2mm the marks would be out of alignment with what would initially be in the RIP. When you then take the job to the cutter and it detects the marks, how would the cutter handle that the job is now 2mm longer then it initially was in digital form before being printed. Would the RIP/Cutter adjust the cut lines and make them all fractionally bigger to compensate?

Hope this makes sense, and thank you for any input

 

[Modern Ink Signs]

It depends on your cutter. I believe that the cutters that can read digital registration marks for cutting adjust for this but I’m not 100% sure on that.

My Summa corrects for any distortion. The Mimaki cutters I have also adjust for length distortion.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

The RIP doesn't handle it, the machines do. The HP has vertical correction and many cutters do too. The RIP passes the absolute values and the machines compensate.

Most of the issues you will face with Latex is heat related bowing or smiling. The center stretches further than the sides. Summa uses a linear bar on the front and rear (optional) to read and compensate for this.

 

[madredfox]

Thanks for that, we use a Summa S2 T160 and also a Mimaki CG FX 130. We did find that the Summa was compensating so we stopped using it and for this particular job we only use the Mimaki.

We need to print labels that are 322mm x 226mm and we nest 15 of them per print run. We are now finding that the end result are labels that are 322mm x 227mm.

So from what you are saying the cutter then compensates if the vinyl stretches and adjusts cut lines and they end up being bigger?

We need them to remain exact as the client is very particular, so what would my options be?

RIP we use is ergosoft 15, Printer is HP Latex 310

 

[balstestrat]

I don't know about Ergosoft but at least in Onyx and Caldera, you can do a automatic size compensation.
So let's say your 1100mm comes out as 1102mm. You can calculate from the numbers the needed compensation and insert the values in the RIP. From now on it will always compensate the adjustment %.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

Thanks for that, we use a Summa S2 T160 and also a Mimaki CG FX 130. We did find that the Summa was compensating so we stopped using it and for this particular job we only use the Mimaki.

We need to print labels that are 322mm x 226mm and we nest 15 of them per print run. We are now finding that the end result are labels that are 322mm x 227mm.

So from what you are saying the cutter then compensates if the vinyl stretches and adjusts cut lines and they end up being bigger?

We need them to remain exact as the client is very particular, so what would my options be?

RIP we use is ergosoft 15, Printer is HP Latex 310

I don't know anything about ergosoft, they may have compensation built in. You are going to have to find where the changes are coming in to play... If the HP is causing image expansion then the cutter only has specific compensation algorithms to work with and may cause a 1mm change in size. Honestly, the HP Latex is not suitable for small labels due to the heat caused changes in media size.

Your best bet is to use Summas Opos XY2 and His Vertical compensation to make sure images stay the same. With HP's vertical compensation you need to print a block of color and measure the size and compensate for actual vs expected.

Onyx also has a bowing compensation factor, but it is convoluted and difficult to use.

 

[balstestrat]

With HP's vertical compensation you need to print a block of color and measure the size and compensate for actual vs expected.

Onyx also has a bowing compensation factor, but it is convoluted and difficult to use.

I think you are mixing these up. HP has built in bowing compensation. Onyx has size compensation (maybe onyx has bowing as well, but I wouldn't use that).

 

[WYLDGFI]

For us, Caldera has an option to include a certain % for shrinkage or lengthening.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

I think you are mixing these up. HP has built in bowing compensation. Onyx has size compensation (maybe onyx has bowing as well, but I wouldn't use that).

Negative, HP has both Vertical and Bowing Compensation. The caveat with HPs bowing compensation is that it changes heat output in the center of the machine which causes all kinds of printability issues. Some machines just don't dry when this is enabled.

 

[balstestrat]

Negative, HP has both Vertical and Bowing Compensation. The caveat with HPs bowing compensation is that it changes heat output in the center of the machine which causes all kinds of printability issues. Some machines just don't dry when this is enabled.

Where is the vertical compensation in 300 Series?
Feed compensation it can't be, that is different.

 

[Ramz]

Where is the vertical compensation in 300 Series?
Feed compensation it can't be, that is different.

Hi
When using Onyx RIP - Go to Media manager and edit the profile. Go to Basic Print Mode Settings - Mode Options - Substrate Library - Edit the print mode - Advance options - And you be able to make your adjustments in there for the straightness and advance factor.

Cheers

 

[balstestrat]

Hi
When using Onyx RIP - Go to Media manager and edit the profile. Go to Basic Print Mode Settings - Mode Options - Substrate Library - Edit the print mode - Advance options - And you be able to make your adjustments in there for the straightness and advance factor.

Cheers

Hey friend, yeah I know this... I was asking Christian here to show me where it's in the printer.

 

[Ramz]

Select the desired media from the substrate library and modify. Edit the print mode and select advance setting which will take you to the the screen where you can edit the bowing and advance factor.

 

[balstestrat]

Select the desired media from the substrate library and modify. Edit the print mode and select advance setting which will take you to the the screen where you can edit the bowing and advance factor.

Yeah like I said before, advance factor (Feed compensation) is not for size compensation. It's to correct feed and banding. Should not be used to correct wrong size output, in this case because of heat.

 

[Ramz]

Well then in that case I believe it is the scaling issue then. Which can only be done at the RIP and not at the printer.

 

[balstestrat]

Well then in that case I believe it is the scaling issue then. Which can only be done at the RIP and not at the printer.

Exactly.

 

[WYLDGFI]

Well then in that case I believe it is the scaling issue then. Which can only be done at the RIP and not at the printer.

That is correct. That is how we handle it and have for years now. The 850s were worse.....1500s are infinitely better with less shrinkage. We still get a shrinkage of .5-.75 inches for every 15-20 ft on banner media in a run. Compensating for that is a given.

 

[ikarasu]

Yeah like I said before, advance factor (Feed compensation) is not for size compensation. It's to correct feed and banding. Should not be used to correct wrong size output, in this case because of heat.

Media advance also plays into length correction, it's not just for banding. When we were having issues with length, we were told to turn off OMAS and do a manually calibration after it was attached to the takeup reel. we were a CM short on a 5 FT print (It was for a screenprint job and needed to be exact...) We tried everything, including onyx's size calibration and nothing worked perfectly... But as soon as we did the manually calibration it was fine.

It was suggested to us by an HP engineer as well...so I don't think it was just luck.

 

[balstestrat]

Media advance also plays into length correction, it's not just for banding. When we were having issues with length, we were told to turn off OMAS and do a manually calibration after it was attached to the takeup reel. we were a CM short on a 5 FT print (It was for a screenprint job and needed to be exact...) We tried everything, including onyx's size calibration and nothing worked perfectly... But as soon as we did the manually calibration it was fine.

It was suggested to us by an HP engineer as well...so I don't think it was just luck.

Yeah it should be done for length inconsistency but not for size compensation, which is two different issues.

You use it for size compensation and change the value too much it will cause banding.