HP Latex + Built in Color calibration

[ikarasu]

Just wondering... how do you guys find HP's built in spectrometer?

For the most part it seems pretty good. I can't get a good grey via profiles for the life of me though - It always comes out purple. On our solvent, hand making a profile and changing the starting black generation gave us great greys.. going into onyx, it doesn't want to let me edit the profile the printer made for some reason.

so here I am.. back to printing swatches and getting ready to hand scan them in. do you guys with spectrometers hand make / edit your ICC profiles, or just 1 button click on the latex's?

 

[Pauly]

Just wondering... how do you guys find HP's built in spectrometer?

For the most part it seems pretty good. I can't get a good grey via profiles for the life of me though - It always comes out purple. On our solvent, hand making a profile and changing the starting black generation gave us great greys.. going into onyx, it doesn't want to let me edit the profile the printer made for some reason.

so here I am.. back to printing swatches and getting ready to hand scan them in. do you guys with spectrometers hand make / edit your ICC profiles, or just 1 button click on the latex's?

Doesn't the build in spectro (Xrite i believe) allow you to export readings to other software? or use other software to read the patches?

 

[ikarasu]

It is an xrite... And it auto uploads the ICC to onyx. But when I go into media management... I can't edit the ICC, everything is greyed out. The only thing I can do is have it build an HP spot color table. I presumed it's because it's generated by the printer... but this is the first time I've tried, so maybe I'm just missing something.

I even imported the ICC, added it as a new ICC.. but everything is still greyed out in onyx. and unfortunately my I1 software isn't the one that allows me to edit ICC, so I can't check if I can in there.

It'd be nice if it allowed it to though, I'll continue playing around with it... I don't see why they don't allow you to edit it, maybe it's just a setting or something else I'm missing.

 

[ikarasu]

It shows up as "3rd party" under onyx, and actually has copyright information... so I'm going to assume thats why onyx cant edit it. I know theres a free ICC editor out there... I'll give it a try. If it works, might be time to finally upgrade X-rites software to allow editing!

 

[ColorCrest]

Things should work this way…

One calibrates their color printer to produce neutral grays from the deepest black of the ability of the printer / ink / media combination, through the gray scale, to white. Colors will fall where they may. From that point the ICC profile is generated and will correct colors according to the profiling software’s particular belief of where the colors should ultimately be. If the printer gray calibration was / is skewed from gray, the newly created ICC output profile should correct it to neutral.

However, ICC output profiles should remain valid for a given printer / ink / media combination setup for ever. If you find yourself re-creating ICC output profiles for the same setup, you’re printer is drifting from calibration. The task is to keep the printer linearized to a known calibration (gray), not re-profiling.

One typically edits their calibration, not their ICC profiles. (Profile editing software is specialized.)

 

[HulkSmash]

its medicore at best

 

[AF]

Get an external spectro. There are materials that won’t work with the internal also. Ideal is a Barbierri ($€$$) with wide aperture. We use X-rite and can produce exceptional profiles. Xrite software is good. Onyx should be able to do what you need as well.

 

[ikarasu]

Yeah, we have an X-rite. I was given a few tips on how to fix the linerization / profiling, which I'll try to do tomorrow. If it doesn't help,I'll use X-rite and onyx... I prefer having more control over linerization / starting blacks / etc anyways.

And yes... I noticed the internal wont do reflectives, where as the external one will read it. I'm sure the external isn't 100% on reflectives, but it seems to scan the colors in pretty good.

 

[ColorCrest]

It always comes out purple.

I'm curious to know what "it" is you're looking at. A printer control image, a gray color recipe, a Pantone cool gray, what exactly is telling you things are purple.

 

[FrankW]

You can‘t edit any ICC-Profile, you need the measured values to create a new one with different settings. And you dont have this values from profiles not made with the onyx profiler.

Check your greys under daylight ... could be a big difference.

 

[Pauly]

OH i see what's going on.
The printer is generating its own ICC profiles from the built in software and uploads it to onyx.
That's why you cant edit it. Onyx wont edit profiles not create by onyx

 

[ikarasu]

I'm curious to know what "it" is you're looking at. A printer control image, a gray color recipe, a Pantone cool gray, what exactly is telling you things are purple.

My eyes are telling me it's purple. I'd post a picture if I didn't throw it out already... but I'll give an example.

Pantone 429... Supposed to be a light grey. The latex printer wants to turn it to - 30/31/29/0. My flatbed, which I tweaked the Linearization on... It tries 8/.5/0/31, which comes out pretty close. I ended up using 2/.5/0/31 and got a grey the eye can't tell the difference of.

It looks purpleish/blue indoors, and outdoors.

We have 3 light setups here - Our art room is setup with 5000K bulbs to get as close to daylight as possible... Our printer room is sadly setup with halogens that do change the color a lot, and downstairs we have some other color of lights. I can walk through the building with a sample and see it change colors 4 times... I know everything looks different under different light.

But comparing pantone 429 in the book to what printed... Lets just say what printed was more like pantone 436.

And I'm also aware it's not profiled properly... Which was my whole question, whether people stick to the HP latex's one button, non editable (From what I know) setup.. or revert back to manually scanning and editing settings in a more advanced way with a handheld scanner.

I'm by no means an expert on setting up profiles... It took me probably 100 hours of reading to understand enough to learn how to tweak onyx's Linearization to get good greys without having to setup a quickset to change them...But I do have a general understanding, and can make a decent profile... at least compared to what the printer is printing at right now.

I did get some tips... Creating a new media instead of using the downloaded one, and going through the whole linearization process from scratch should give it way better results, I just havent had time to do it today.

 

[ikarasu]

OH i see what's going on.
The printer is generating its own ICC profiles from the built in software and uploads it to onyx.
That's why you cant edit it. Onyx wont edit profiles not create by onyx

Yep - Wagner was nice enough to send me a message though, you can setup the HP Latex as a color device in onyx... print everything out through onyx and have it auto read it still. then everything should be editable.

Not sure how well it'd work, as I haven't had time to test it. But I definitely prefer having more control over it, so I'll be giving it a try as soon as I can!

 

[dypinc]

I did get some tips... Creating a new media instead of using the downloaded one, and going through the whole linearization process from scratch should give it way better results, I just havent had time to do it today.

Absolutely, that is the best way to do it. DO NOT CLONE, start from the top menu when creating a new Media Preset.

Not sure which printer you are using but there were firmware updates that invalidated all existing calibrations. So you have no why of knowing what firmware the existing calibration was created with. It would not trust an canned calibration and output profiles. And yes you should be able to use the onboard spectro with you RIP and bring those readings into your RIP profile creation and then do what ever GCR etc. adjustments you want, and be able to go back and edit those later if desired.

As for named Pantone Spot colors Onyx has the ability to create a color chart with CMYK output values you can visually see which is the closet match and set your specific pantone color in your spot color library to use those output values. As for different viewing light, not much you can do about that other that set your GCR to use more black. Doing that you just have to decide how much graininess you can live with. If you can live with the graininess try setting you color mode in your Media Preset to CMYK so the light inks are not being used as the limitation of only having one LcLm printhead does create problem in certain situations.

 

[ColorCrest]

I know theres a free ICC editor out there... I'll give it a try. If it works, might be time to finally upgrade X-rites software to allow editing!

Am I correct in assuming you're using the term "editing" ICC profiles as a misnomer when most understand the process as "creating" ICC profiles?

If and when you do find any such software, do you know of a control that will enable you to "reduce purple?"

 

[dypinc]

There is software to edit Profiles. But there is no way to "reduce purple" without affecting all the other colors. It can be a bottomless pit, edit to alter one color and see how it effect other colors and then edit that effected color and so on and so on.

Best to get it right to begin with by proper calibration/linearization and profile creation. And then use named Spot colors where possible and choose the output values if needed as I mentioned before where it effect no other colors.

 

[ikarasu]

Am I correct in assuming you're using the term "editing" ICC profiles as a misnomer when most understand the process as "creating" ICC profiles?

If and when you do find any such software, do you know of a control that will enable you to "reduce purple?"

The HP latex will create ICC profiles. You however have no say in how it creates it. You cant pick between GCR/UCR. You can't choose when it starts adding black... You can't tweak it at all. The latex's ICC profile creating is like profiling for dummies. You get a one button click, with no other options / settings. Which is still better than no profiling... But not perfect. Profiling is like an art... Unless you've been doing it for a living for 20 years, and even then... You'll never get perfect. Unless of course starting from scratch you get those options...

I've only ever profiled from onyx. I presumed / hoped that since onyx downloaded the ICC from the printer... You'd be able to "edit" it to change all those settings. Which is why I used the term edit. I can create a profile with onyx... And go back in and "edit" it all I want.

Maybe my terminology is wrong. Maybe you know 10x more about profiling than me (wouldn't doubt it), and in your eyes I'm completely trying to solve a problem that's not as complicated as it seems.

As for using these settings to make it look less purple... There's lots of ways. The quickest dirtiest way is to change the starting black percent. Yes, it'll cause other issues... But again.. it's all about fine tuning and finding a balance.

Right now, if I send a file over with 0/0/0/50 cmyk... The profile created by HP changes it to 30/30/30/0. Which obviously isn't going.to be a nice neutral grey... It's more as I'd call it a light "purple". And I see no reason onyx would use 0 black to create a grey.

Again... Maybe it's because I used the downloaded profile instead of a clone / new one when I told the printer to create the ICC. Which was the point of this thread.. whether those with the built in spectrometer find the colors to be accurate enough... Or if they prefer to create profiles manually, with more control over the results.

We profiled our solvent and our flatbed. Our solvent could hit most colors, including Grey's without much editing. It was profiled great... Our latex was profiled via the printer, it hits most colors good.. with the exception of Grey's. Our Grey's come out blue... Purple... Every shade of color except grey. I can of course manually change the cmyk values and get good Grey's... So either the profiling on it isn't the best, due to lack of control / settings... Or it messed up somewhere along the way. I'll be making a new profile based on recommendations early next week.... And I'll manually makw one in onyx, see the difference.

 

[Zendavor Signs]

Printing neutral grays is not the Latex's strong suit. I'm not a color management expert. I hired an expensive one to custom build profiles for our Latex. They worked pretty well, until the printer kicked them out and put back some kind of generic profile. Color management expert shrugged his shoulders and says it's the printers fault. I've learned to deal with "good enough" by just creating new profiles on the printer. Since I don't know how to create profiles from scratch, what the Latex gives me is better than nothing. I just wish they would improve it.

 

[dypinc]

Right now, if I send a file over with 0/0/0/50 cmyk... The profile created by HP changes it to 30/30/30/0. Which obviously isn't going.to be a nice neutral grey... It's more as I'd call it a light "purple". And I see no reason onyx would use 0 black to create a grey.

It is not onyx that is creating 0 black. It is the profile. You just said "the profile created by HP". Why blame onyx? Does the HP profile engine really set their GCR that low. What are they afraid of? Trying to hide their grainy black?

Once again DO NOT CLONE MEDIA PRESETS! You are probably cloning bad calibrations. Start form scratch with a NEW media preset from the top of the substrate menu. With a good calibration and profile even if the output values are 30/30/30/0 you should not be getting purple unless the light conditions you are view it under are causing it to look that way.

Take a look at this thread https://signs101.com/threads/latex-360-color-consistency-is-not-there.128041/

 

[ikarasu]

It is not onyx that is creating 0 black. It is the profile. You just said "the profile created by HP". Why blame onyx? Does the HP profile engine really set their GCR that low. What are they afraid of? Trying to hide their grainy black?

Once again DO NOT CLONE MEDIA PRESETS! You are probably cloning bad calibrations. Start form scratch with a NEW media preset from the top of the substrate menu. With a good calibration and profile even if the output values are 30/30/30/0 you should not be getting purple unless the light conditions you are view it under are causing it to look that way.

Take a look at this thread https://signs101.com/threads/latex-360-color-consistency-is-not-there.128041/

Yes, I know. When I say onyx, I just mean the profile it's using. I don't blame onyx. It works great on user created profiles. For all I know my profile is bugged/bad... I can't get into it to see how it's reading colors / what anything is set at. So it may not be hps fault.. I'm using the media preset from HP...didn't color calibration and created an ICC from it. Which is apparently not the best way to do it. I imagine it's how most people do it... But I'll try a new media preset next week.

I actually don't find their black grainy. We printed a wrap with 2/2/2/30 for a lightish grey and it came out great. We've never really had a problem with graininess on our latex. We just printed some pure 8 x16" black decals...160 of them. Rush order so we didn't have time.to screen print them. We used 60/40/40/100... And it was such a solid black our sales reps and the customer couldn't tell it wasn't screen printed. Certain light colors get a bit grainy if youre looking from 6 inches. But generally we find it good.

And I don't mean a Violet purple... It's a weird muddy mix between purple / pink it's like it's trying to be grey, but it has a magenta/purplish undertone to it.