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Huge Mistake, vinyl on paint

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allbrite

New Member
Whelp, I've been lurking these boards for over three years now. I figured my first post should be one of meaning. Well.. now it is. And I'm hoping one of you might be able to assist me with my own muck up.

I work in a small sign shop and I'm trying to help a woman with a 8' x 4' metal sign she has artistically hand-painted with Behr 100% acrylic flat stain-resistant outdoor paint. (After I gave her the idea of trying to help her figure out what she wants. Like an idiot.. ) It's well dried, over 6 weeks.

We attempted to apply Oracal 651 to it but it just.. won't. I tried heat and rolling. Nothing seems to help. It's on there now, but a light breeze will blow it right off.
Is there a way to prep the already painted sign to apply the decal to it or a finish we can put over the top? I'm not new to laying vinyl out but I am to a painted surface.

I was told a different vinyl might work, but the issue I am having is that my boss isn't wanting to use a different vinyl. He's had issues with instances similar and now I'm doing this now in my free time with my own money to try and help her out so a recut with a different product isn't really an option for me. I'm simply trying to correct a mistake with what I have.

I guess I thought if the painted sign just had a sealant or finish of some kind on it it might allow for the vinyl to stick.
Does anyone have any advice?
I'm legit wanting to quit based on the fact that I thought I was helping and I just made everything worse. Help! :(
 
Gino

Gino

Premium Subscriber
There are quite a few variables to maybe hafta work around.

First is :
Stain is not paint and should not be used on a metal surface.
Did she thin it down when putting it on by hand artistically ??
651 is a calendared vinyl, not really good for outdoor use in this case.

I believe you have several things going wrong for you and her... and your best bet is to strip the 4x8 and start over, or turn it over and use the other side and start over using the correct paint and vinyl.
 
A

allbrite

New Member
Gino said:
There are quite a few variables to maybe hafta work around.

First is :
Stain is not paint and should not be used on a metal surface.
Did she thin it down when putting it on by hand artistically ??
651 is a calendared vinyl, not really good for outdoor use in this case.

I believe you have several things going wrong for you and her... and your best bet is to strip the 4x8 and start over, or turn it over and use the other side and start over using the correct paint and vinyl.
Click to expand...
Behr 100% acrylic flat stain-resistant outdoor paint is what she used, It wasn't thinned down in any way.
I can't ask her to repaint it because it's her 'art' and it's on both signs because it would have been a sign posted like, in a yard where both sides are visible.
I was told I could seal it in an automotive clear coat and give that a try but because It will be coming out of my pocket then I want to be sure before attempting it.
I could also simply use the vinyl as a stencil and hand paint all of it in white paint but I'm not sure how to go about using laid vinyl as a stencil.
 
Gino

Gino

Premium Subscriber
Before you waste any time or money, do a fingernail test. At 2 or 3 small spots, see if you can remove the artistic hand painted stain on the metal on each side. If it at all scratches, just stop. There's nothing you can really do from a professional standpoint. It's her fault for using the wrong paint/stain and your fault for trying to help with this project. This is what happens when you enter into an area you know nothing about. It'[s best to stop while you're a head.

You can put an automotive clear on it, but that is gonna cost you dearly, plus all you're doing is polishing a turd. Using the wrong medium and then clearing does not make it outdoor durable. It's still probably gonna peel.
 
A

allbrite

New Member
JBurton said:
No he said stain resistant, which to me spells out some sort of latex/silicone based paint that will be impossible to stick to. I had a wall like this that we installed ij35c, it fell off, ij180 w/ heated roller until you saw every bit of texture, it fell off, ended up with 080 aluminum pegged off the wall.
In any case, you're not going to have much luck sticking vinyl to that paint. Perhaps you could stick to some ACM and route it out, but now you are talking $ again...
Click to expand...
Since the vinyl is pretty much laid out on the sign, would it be feasible to take a super thing line paint marker around the letters and then peel it up and paint it in with white paint of the same make? Is it an option if I'm willing to do this massive thing?
 
Gino

Gino

Premium Subscriber
It is not paint. It is stain. Stain does not cover completely, unless you use solid color stain, but then you'll have other problems of never thoroughly drying. Painting with stain will be like painting with snot. It will never cover.

You might find a band-aide, but it will never last..... at least not to a point that you'd wanna be connected to what took place.

You've already admitted this was a huge mistake with your title. Are YOU trying to make it even bigger ??
 
Gino

Gino

Premium Subscriber
JBurton said:
No he said stain resistant, which to me spells out some sort of latex/silicone based paint that will be impossible to stick to. I had a wall like this that we installed ij35c, it fell off, ij180 w/ heated roller until you saw every bit of texture, it fell off, ended up with 080 aluminum pegged off the wall.
In any case, you're not going to have much luck sticking vinyl to that paint. Perhaps you could stick to some ACM and route it out, but now you are talking $ again...
Click to expand...
Uhhhh......... I see. It's not stain. Acrylic. Make a pounce pattern and paint the lettering on, using a good lettering enamel and perhaps clear over the whole thing in a spray format.
 
jfiscus

jfiscus

Rap Master
You could possibly use a gloss clear coat spray paint over top of the current paint to get a nice "smooth" glossy finish to adhere the lettering to. Recently painted a stained wood sign and it was a nightmare to get the stencil to stick so we could get the lettering painted. Took a few coats of gloss clear to cover it to get it to stick long enough to paint.

You could also photograph the sign and reprint the face with the lettering included onto a new face.
 
I

iPrintStuff

Prints stuff
Best bet is to just explain to the customer that the paint they used involves the word “resistant”. It will naturally repel anything you put on there; that’s what it’s designed to do.

I’d chat with your boss and probably just credit the customer (if they’ve paid already) with any part(s) of the job you’re unable to do and not put any of your own money into there.

You’ve encountered a variable that is her doing (stain resistant paint) so any fix, such as a clearcoat, should probably be down to her to pay for - providing you’ve given her the funds back for the initial failed vinyls etc
 
A

allbrite

New Member
JBurton said:
Yes, this could work just fine... Gino is going deaf or blind these days it would seem, as this is acrylic paint, right?
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Yep. I believe this is the route we're going to take. I'll order a good lettering enamel like Gino suggested and hope for the best.
Wish me luck and thank you all for the advice, it was tremendously helpful for an ignorant country gal like myself. XD
 
A

allbrite

New Member
Gino said:
Uhhhh......... I see. It's not stain. Acrylic. Make a pounce pattern and paint the lettering on, using a good lettering enamel and perhaps clear over the whole thing in a spray format.
Click to expand...
Any input of what type of clear coat?
 
Gino

Gino

Premium Subscriber
If you're not set up for spraying (meaning a booth and such) just get a few cans of clearshield spray in semi-gloss clear-jet.
First put on two dry coats. That's barely a mist, so you cover everything. Once it's been kinda primed like that, you can go at it and put 2 or 3 more regular coats on it. Everything will look uniform and your customer should be happy.

As for longevity...... ?? It will all only be as good as what the original acrylic had painting by the artist did. When that paint lifts, so will the rest of it. I would use 1-shot for the lettering.
 
B

BigNate

New Member
JBurton said: "....clean the wall 2 times with 70% alcohol/30% water (except video Joe's spray bottle said IPA 2/1)"
Click to expand...

now that is an interesting squirrel chase! IPA 2/1 is basically 70% isopropyl alcohol... 2/1 = 66.66%/33.33% (as opposed to the 70% written as 70%/30%)... HOWEVER, you cannot distill the alcohol pure - hence the archaic way of metering,... If you take 70% of 'pure distilled' IPA and dilute with 30% pure water you will have an actual ratio of chemical alcohol to chemical water of basically 2/1. (different regions will label alcohol differently.... "IPA 2/1" = "70% rubbing alcohol")
 
FireSprint.com

FireSprint.com

Trade Only Screen & Digital Sign Printing
JBurton said:
I was really hoping to see some secret sauce in this video, but honestly it appears to be a big fat 3m covering their asses promo against installers when asked the question, why did the print fail.
For anybody who didn't wanna waste 5 minutes watching, clean the wall 2 times with 70% alcohol/30% water (except video Joe's spray bottle said IPA 2/1). If adhesion is still inadequate, clean it again with alcohol
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It certainly pushes 3m products but the testing method is valid if you want to do some simple tests.

Also, I can't tell you how many times I have seen someone complain about adhesive failure, yet they don't take the time to do a simple surface prep.

I hear you about the secret sauce, but in my experience, there is rarely a secret sauce, just alot of hard work and prep.
 
visual800

visual800

Active Member
another huge factor is that the paint was flat to begin with. Since this is hand painted am I to assume to is slightly textured? Why was is painted flat to begin with?
the only thing I know to do would be to put a automotive clear on it. Even then isnt this overkill for this project if she is an artist tell her to letter it,

Sounds like too much time has already been wasted on this project, "NO" will become your favorite word one day.
 
MikePro

MikePro

New Member
the devil is in the details.... stain resistance is resistance to adhesion.
try vinyl designed for LSE plastics, like arlon 8000 or 3M IJ39

(edited to add some mad-scientistry: i've also made surfaces for receptive to adhesion via corona-treatment of the surface prior to application)
 
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