Hydrograhic Printing - Anyone know the ingredients for Part "A"

[Coppers Lot]

Hi all,
There have been a few questions over the years about hydrographic printing.
I am interested in the manufacture of small run custom films and I imagine that several other pigment printers are also interested.

There is loads of information on the net on how to make your own prints, the basics are as I understand it: Print your pattern onto PVA film with pure pigment ink. Spray Activator "A" to fix film. Put folm in water and spray with part "B" to melt the pva and re-hydrate the water based ink.....dip part.

I am aware of the chemical formulas that are available with the exception of the fixative/sealant which for some reason is called Activator "A".
I know "A" is based on an Automotive Isolator/Sealer of some kind.
Recently I asked this question of a chemist friend of mine. I can't afford the reverse engineer fee (1k£) so as a favour they gave me an opinion based on a sniff test.
My chemist friend guesses that Activator "A" is a watered down version of Dope (Aircraft model makers Sealer).
I have had a look at the MSDS for Dope and there are similarities with the MSDS for Activator "B".

Does anyone already make their own or have an opinion as to what Activator "A" actually is please?

 

[knucklehead]

I've seen a 'homebrew recipe', for one of them, on e-bay for $7.00, I think it was?

 

[Coppers Lot]

I've seen a 'homebrew recipe', for one of them, on e-bay for $7.00, I think it was?

I have looked for that one but so far I have not found it for "A", only "B".
You do remind me to search again on the USA site though.

 

[studebaker]

Hydrographic Film Printing

I suspect aircraft fabric dope would work... Although dope is applied to shrink and tighten the dacron fabric. As much as I used fabric dope in my youth, I never thought to experiment with it.

The Activator A I bought from JetYoung smelled like a Photographic Film processing chemical. I never even tried it as a fixative because of the smell, I didn't want my shop smelling like that all the time.

The important part of the Fixative is that it melts when exposed to Activator B AND allows adhesion of the ink to the substrate.

In my experiments I used rattle cans of clear and white paint as a fixative, some worked, and some didn't melt properly. It was the cost of the clear paint that kept me experimenting to find a cost effective alternative. I can definitely say that water based clears paints don't work. They bite around the ink into the PVA film and don't allow full penetration of the activator.

 

[studebaker]

I've seen a 'homebrew recipe', for one of them, on e-bay for $7.00, I think it was?

Those home brew recipes on ebay are for the Activator "B"... Coppers Lot was asking about the Fixative/ Activator A formula.

For those who want to know, the formula sold on ebay is 70% Lacquer Thinner and 30% Xylene. $7.00 left in you pocket for lunch....

 

[Coppers Lot]

Interesting but the question still needs examining.
I wonder of thinning the dope might be the next consideration, or increasing the value of one of its components.

 

[signsourcellc]

saw this being done online earlier today!!

I saw on a website earlier you can buy all the stuff for them. The website was www.mydipkit.com I saw a video of it being done earlier and that led me to the website looks really cool id like to try it out.

 

[Coppers Lot]

I saw on a website earlier you can buy all the stuff for them. The website was www.mydipkit.com I saw a video of it being done earlier and that led me to the website looks really cool id like to try it out.

Thanks for replying buddy but I want to make my own activator "A" not buy it from someone else.

 

[Nuagedesigns]

why is this subject of printing so tight lipped?? I dont understand why everyone is so secretive about the whole process. In my opinion its not worth the time and effort for quality or profit. Dont get me wrong it has its applications and for those it is great and the only way to achieve such coverage.... I dont know just do not get it.

 

[artbot]

way way way .... wha???? i don't know anything about this system at all. but any activator "B" that is Lacquer Thinner and Xylene is not an activator at all. it's to soften an lacquer such as CAB or possibly nitrocellulose (most likely not).

for whatever it's worth, i'd get away from these silly trade terms that seem to be meant to lure people away from the simplicity of the system.

if you (correct me if i'm getting this wrong) are printing onto pva with waterbased pigment ink.... then lacquering it with CAB. then laying the film in water and spraying it with lacquer thinner/xylene, you are not rehydrating the film. you are softening the CAB so that it is tacky and will act as an adhesive. the reason the ink comes off the film is because of the gelatin coating on the pvc gets a dose of condensation from the lacquer thinner (slowed with xylene...bad choice if you ask me) evaporating, then that gelatin which holds the ink lets go of the film. the image is then maintained by the CAB which is sticky and sticks to the form.

 

[Coppers Lot]

why is this subject of printing so tight lipped?? I dont understand why everyone is so secretive about the whole process. In my opinion its not worth the time and effort for quality or profit. Dont get me wrong it has its applications and for those it is great and the only way to achieve such coverage.... I dont know just do not get it.

A good question and one everyone asks.

 

[knucklehead]

I thought about getting into it too, but after I printed a guy some sheets, and saw the 'whole process', I decided I'd be happy just doing the print part. There's a little bit more to it, than they show on utube.

 

[Coppers Lot]

way way way .... wha???? i don't know anything about this system at all. but any activator "B" that is Lacquer Thinner and Xylene is not an activator at all. it's to soften an lacquer such as CAB or possibly nitrocellulose (most likely not).

for whatever it's worth, i'd get away from these silly trade terms that seem to be meant to lure people away from the simplicity of the system.

if you (correct me if i'm getting this wrong) are printing onto pva with waterbased pigment ink.... then lacquering it with CAB. then laying the film in water and spraying it with lacquer thinner/xylene, you are not rehydrating the film. you are softening the CAB so that it is tacky and will act as an adhesive. the reason the ink comes off the film is because of the gelatin coating on the pvc gets a dose of condensation from the lacquer thinner (slowed with xylene...bad choice if you ask me) evaporating, then that gelatin which holds the ink lets go of the film. the image is then maintained by the CAB which is sticky and sticks to the form.

Hi Artbot, thanks for the reply. I do not know why the terms used as as they are. "A" is a fixative and "B" a release agent but the Chinese decided they were both Activator !
The chemical make up of "B" is as I stated and the chemical formula for it is freely available. It is even made in the USA by a company who I think are called Express Chem(?) so the MSDS is out there.

PVA melts away due to a combination of the water, the length of time it is left (a minute or two depending on temp) and the "B".
At the same time the "B" also releases the fixative properties of "A" allowing for the transfer from the melting film to the substrate.

The only CAB I know of is for woodworking, is it that to which you refer to please?

Xylene is used because it is used in ink and paint and I think it contains or is mixed with MBK which, oddly enough, dissolves cellulose nitrate.

Unfortunately I am not a chemist but I believe that whatever "A" is, be it Dope or even Automotive Sealer/ Isolator as suggested elsewhere, I suspect that it is watered down to a weaker consistency so that it becomes an easily removed varnish type compound.

 

[artbot]

i was reading too fast and thought this mentioned pvc. disregard, pva is totally different.

 

[Coppers Lot]

Thanks Buddy.

 

[studebaker]

Wow, this discussion between Coppers Lot and artbot is spot on. They both have an excellent grasp of the workings of the system... I commend you both for your acuity and zeal. It's good to hear discussions about this rare and sometimes forgotten (in the signmaking world) topic.

Sometimes it's just easier to dip a part in hydrographic film than to wrap it.... Especially when you can print the film to match the wrap.

 

[Coppers Lot]

Dipping an interior and engine bay to match a wrap sounds a good idea making the importance of finding the formula for "A" more important.
It would appear I'm the only one searching at this current time.

 

[signsourcellc]

Thanks for replying buddy but I want to make my own activator "A" not buy it from someone else.

Just figured id throw it out there. lol. Let us know how it works It looks awesome!

 

[Coppers Lot]

Just figured id throw it out there. lol. Let us know how it works It looks awesome!

Yeah, sorry. I wasn't being mean spirited buddy. It is an awesome product but seems rather expensive for what is in reality cheap items.
The true expense is custom film which is what interests me and personalised products are always a winner.

 

[studebaker]

Dipping an interior and engine bay to match a wrap sounds a good idea making the importance of finding the formula for "A" more important.
It would appear I'm the only one searching at this current time.

Yeah, it's being done with wheels matching the wrap also....