I have to thank other sign shops for the following rant

[dejoh]

You folks seem to forget. Once upon a time, either your artwork was handed to you or it was faxed. Then you made patterns.
What happened next was from your skill and talent.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

You folks seem to forget. Once upon a time, either your artwork was handed to you or it was faxed. Then you made patterns.
What happened next was from your skill and talent.

Thankfully I missed the era of the fax machine with regard to this. Now I still do get artwork handed to me, but that has a chance of being better copy then something faxed.

 

[SightLine]

Amen lol!! Here is a lovely example on a utility trailer I have sitting in front of my shop right now. Stuff has been on about a year and half and has on average shrunk about a quarter inch but in some places a full half inch! Of course multiple fonts are used and some of the letters are distorted from both poor design and the vinyl shrinking and splitting. The printed part has has shrunk but I admit for being unlaminated it has not turned white. Of course most of it is breaking easily and leaving all the adhesive on removal. There are 2 of these - we are removing everything and doing full wraps on them. Printed on 3M 180CV3 and fully gloss laminated. But..... it's very good money!

On the second photo - the apostrophe appears to have never been there and you can slightly see the line at the top of the white letters where they have shrunk like crazy.

 

[Latigo]

Funny how perceptions of talents have changed. Back in my day we slung brushes. If you couldn't hand letter and illustrate with a brush and paint and make it look as if it were printed you weren't going to get work at all. My own schooling was in an honest to gosh graphics school for illustrating, lettering and design, starting sometime around 1969. I think maybe the only thing that could reproduce by (sort of) hand was caled a Pantograph. It took about as much talent to operate as these computers and plotters do now.

The point of all this? All things being equal, the term "Graphics" is now used very loosely by people who have no clue about what the word really means. If you have a good computer, good software, good films and access to the net and clipart, you're now a "Graphics" company. The shades of difference are simple decision making about what to use in your mix of computers, design software, films and application. I'm betting the very great majority of shops don't have an actual honest to gosh human illustrator on staff.

If your computer moxie and understanding of specific different product (media) is superior to your competitions, you're going to assume that you have an obvious upper hand. Not so fast there, Roger Potrzbie. Its a fact of life that the end user may not, and probably will not even recognize the difference.

Example: The St.Marie Family also owns a rather hi-tech recording studio. Comparatively Hi-tech for it's size and dollar investment. Do we get great sound? Yes, we do. Can we match the bog boys in New York and Nashville? Hardly. but............ The average listener will not know the difference unless you have one of ours and one of the big boy's CDs side by side and switch back and forth to listen. Then the listener will say... "Oh, yeah. There is a difference." If they hadn't heard the competition's CD they'd have thought ours was a masterpiece. The only ones who truly appreciate, or are in a place to critique our sound are............. Other experienced sound engineers.

So how does that equate to the sign maker? Don't kid yourself about the public's "appreciation" of your design and finished product. The very great majority don't recognize the difference between good and great, and they can't be forced to recognize it. You simply end up with them thinking your problem is "sour grapes".

Just do the best you can and leave your competitor to solve their own problems without you pointing a finger at them in view of the customer.

I've always told my Son... "Do the very best quality you can do within the quote, develop your techinques and move on. Don't jealously guard your innovations. If someone wants to copy your techniqe, let them. Move on to something new. Don't rest on your laurels. Everything ends with what's in your bank account, and appreciation doesn't affect that account one way or the other".

P

 

[speedmedia]

You get what you pay for. If you want cheap you go to the local lowballer and you get crap from someone who shouldn't even be in the industry. You want good, you go to a reputable shop that doesn't have these issues. Problem is there are more of the first than 2nd...

We always tell people we didn't just go out and buy a bunch of equipment and a $40 nasty font collection CD from Staples we have a background in this and understand the industry and the proper uses in design as well as materials and installation and that is why we are more expensive! It will not change, if you don't want to pay for quality you are obviously not too concerned with your companies image.

Kurt

 

[CheapVehicleWrap]

 

[Bobby H]

You folks seem to forget. Once upon a time, either your artwork was handed to you or it was faxed. Then you made patterns.
What happened next was from your skill and talent.

I think the situation was a little easier back then in certain respects. Problem plaqued customer supplied artwork can be a real time vampire unless you set some ground rules with customers on what you're willing and able to fix.

Back in the "analog" era the talent for graphic design, typography and illustration was more valued than it is today. Not nearly as many people were going the "do it yourself" route for graphics related needs. They had to go to someone who had real skills to get the work completed. Not nearly so many self-taught amateurs were jumping into the graphic design business. That's because it wasn't easy. Too many things had to be done by hand or required special tools with their own skill sets to learn. Projects took careful thought and planning prior to execution. One couldn't just jump in and start rubber cementing things to a layout board. There was no "undo" button back then.

With graphics programs too many people think the computer is doing all the work. Just a few clicks and it's finished, like in one of those CSI Miami TV episodes. They think anyone can do the work, so why pay a trained professional when a low-balling amateur using the same software is willing to do the same job for less?

People are impressed with by the ability to draw and paint things by hand, particularly if you can do it well. But photography has killed off a lot of the demand for illustration. Need a mural? No need to paint it anymore. Just print it and wrap it.

Lots of people acquire applications like Photoshop and Illustrator. Some do it legally while many others download illegal warez. I don't see very many people crowding the painting supplies aisle at Hobby Lobby.

 

[Rick]

I want to thank the lowball signshop that rolled the paint on a monument sign and directionals at a large apartment complex for a large management company. Not only was the color wrong, but the thick foam tape on the poorly cut PVC lettering and graphics, uncured paint texture and exposed rivets on the faces of all the signs were really a nice touch. My client no longer has to worry about his client taking signage out to bid for quite a while as your poorly crafted signs were standing next to my client's clean, well finished signs.

Oh, that did feel better...

 

[WildWestDesigns]

With graphics programs too many people think the computer is doing all the work. Just a few clicks and it's finished, like in one of those CSI Miami TV episodes. They think anyone can do the work, so why pay a trained professional when a low-balling amateur using the same software is willing to do the same job for less?

Thing with the computer programs you still have to know what you are doing in order for it to turn out right.

The one thing that I'm always dealing with is the amount of people that do embroidery digitizing at $1.50 per 1k or less. More often then not (atleast 51% of the time) they have acquired really cheap (or free) programs. Now the programs will still get the job done, but they don't know how to change stitch density, underlay or anything like that for different fabrics, so a lot of their patterns have issues if they aren't for cotton fabrics.

One embroidery shop that's 5 miles down the road from mine used to outsource their files to a company that started off good, but this shop started to think that the people that they were going to let their free trial expire and now they were sending out crap files.

Computers are a blessing and a curse, but the unskilled have the hurtle of still needing to know how to do some things right in order to last in the long run.

Now granted, they can still make things "joyful" for us, but that is a little silver lining there.



For all you "strokers"(couldn't resist), there is an art supply store back in my home town next to Fishmongers(for those in the Plano area might know of it) that still seems to do good business. That shop is about as old as I am.

 

[Dave Drane]

Funny how perceptions of talents have changed. Back in my day we slung brushes. If you couldn't hand letter and illustrate with a brush and paint and make it look as if it were printed you weren't going to get work at all. My own schooling was in an honest to gosh graphics school for illustrating, lettering and design, starting sometime around 1969. I think maybe the only thing that could reproduce by (sort of) hand was caled a Pantograph. It took about as much talent to operate as these computers and plotters do now.

The point of all this? All things being equal, the term "Graphics" is now used very loosely by people who have no clue about what the word really means. If you have a good computer, good software, good films and access to the net and clipart, you're now a "Graphics" company. The shades of difference are simple decision making about what to use in your mix of computers, design software, films and application. I'm betting the very great majority of shops don't have an actual honest to gosh human illustrator on staff.

If your computer moxie and understanding of specific different product (media) is superior to your competitions, you're going to assume that you have an obvious upper hand. Not so fast there, Roger Potrzbie. Its a fact of life that the end user may not, and probably will not even recognize the difference.

Example: The St.Marie Family also owns a rather hi-tech recording studio. Comparatively Hi-tech for it's size and dollar investment. Do we get great sound? Yes, we do. Can we match the bog boys in New York and Nashville? Hardly. but............ The average listener will not know the difference unless you have one of ours and one of the big boy's CDs side by side and switch back and forth to listen. Then the listener will say... "Oh, yeah. There is a difference." If they hadn't heard the competition's CD they'd have thought ours was a masterpiece. The only ones who truly appreciate, or are in a place to critique our sound are............. Other experienced sound engineers.

So how does that equate to the sign maker? Don't kid yourself about the public's "appreciation" of your design and finished product. The very great majority don't recognize the difference between good and great, and they can't be forced to recognize it. You simply end up with them thinking your problem is "sour grapes".

Just do the best you can and leave your competitor to solve their own problems without you pointing a finger at them in view of the customer.

I've always told my Son... "Do the very best quality you can do within the quote, develop your techinques and move on. Don't jealously guard your innovations. If someone wants to copy your techniqe, let them. Move on to something new. Don't rest on your laurels. Everything ends with what's in your bank account, and appreciation doesn't affect that account one way or the other".

P

Pierre, you are leaving yourself wide open for a slamming from the vinyl jockies with this post. There are more here than there are "brush slingers".

 

[iSign]

Pierre, you are leaving yourself wide open for a slamming from the vinyl jockies with this post. There are more here than there are "brush slingers".

How so Dave? Does that actually happen? With all the drama that does go on, I can't say I've ever seen anyone getting slammed here for being hand lettering artists...

...but more importantly, that imagined fear of yours is irrelevant anyway... besides reaffirming your own brush jocky cred, your reply seems to miss the point entirely. Pierre appears to be embracing the business realities of the current day & not clinging to alleged superiority of one skill or tool over another...

...sure beats resting on laurels

 

[TyrantDesigner]

Funny how perceptions of talents have changed. Back in my day we slung brushes. If you couldn't hand letter and illustrate with a brush and paint and make it look as if it were printed you weren't going to get work at all. My own schooling was in an honest to gosh graphics school for illustrating, lettering and design, starting sometime around 1969. I think maybe the only thing that could reproduce by (sort of) hand was caled a Pantograph. It took about as much talent to operate as these computers and plotters do now.

The point of all this? All things being equal, the term "Graphics" is now used very loosely by people who have no clue about what the word really means. If you have a good computer, good software, good films and access to the net and clipart, you're now a "Graphics" company. The shades of difference are simple decision making about what to use in your mix of computers, design software, films and application. I'm betting the very great majority of shops don't have an actual honest to gosh human illustrator on staff.

If your computer moxie and understanding of specific different product (media) is superior to your competitions, you're going to assume that you have an obvious upper hand. Not so fast there, Roger Potrzbie. Its a fact of life that the end user may not, and probably will not even recognize the difference.

Example: The St.Marie Family also owns a rather hi-tech recording studio. Comparatively Hi-tech for it's size and dollar investment. Do we get great sound? Yes, we do. Can we match the bog boys in New York and Nashville? Hardly. but............ The average listener will not know the difference unless you have one of ours and one of the big boy's CDs side by side and switch back and forth to listen. Then the listener will say... "Oh, yeah. There is a difference." If they hadn't heard the competition's CD they'd have thought ours was a masterpiece. The only ones who truly appreciate, or are in a place to critique our sound are............. Other experienced sound engineers.

So how does that equate to the sign maker? Don't kid yourself about the public's "appreciation" of your design and finished product. The very great majority don't recognize the difference between good and great, and they can't be forced to recognize it. You simply end up with them thinking your problem is "sour grapes".

Just do the best you can and leave your competitor to solve their own problems without you pointing a finger at them in view of the customer.

I've always told my Son... "Do the very best quality you can do within the quote, develop your techinques and move on. Don't jealously guard your innovations. If someone wants to copy your techniqe, let them. Move on to something new. Don't rest on your laurels. Everything ends with what's in your bank account, and appreciation doesn't affect that account one way or the other".

P

I don't think I ever once mentioned talents ... so much as basic skill (or lack there of) and using the right materials for a job. I actually do know how to hand letter, learned from an old grizzled pro before I entered the sign industry just because I wanted to know how to do lettering on my paintings that looked decent ... doesn't change the fact that to hand letter ... you still need to do basics like use a ruler which I have found most of your cheap shops don't know or want to know how to use. And for the love of science do I feel sorry for those trucks that got hand lettered and their VIN is wrong ... in paint. Oh, I do have one that came through my shop 5 or 6 months ago ... got hand lettered on his work pickup truck ... water based house paint ... coming off like no ones business, luckily they didn't sand or clear coat it so it was just me doing a rubbing alchohol job on the latex paint and redoing his graphics. Basic skills and right materials, even those that do hand lettering know how to do.

Also, I have had a sign I carved over a decade ago when I was still in college that states "Owning software does not make you a Designer" ... All too often do I see people who have an AMAZING skill with the software, and know how to do ANYTHING with it ... but you know where all my great ideas and designs for customers come from ... sitting with them and within a minute or two, already having 3-5 drawn sketches to go off of. Even then, it never comes down to talent, just reading a customer and using the simplest of design skills to lay out text and a few elements, that is readable and will look good to what they want. ... then I still need to use a ruler to install and make sure all the information is correct with the correct materials for the job.

And lastly, I've never pointed out "your vehicle graphics suck, bro!" ... never a single word in that direction. ... But I will take the compliments with a smile and "Well, Thank you!!" I will rant here, at the wife, at the wall of the shop when a customer is not around and in my head ... anyone who does that at a customer really shouldn't be around people to begin with.

 

[Latigo]

Ok. I take it all back, Dave. :Big Laugh Actually, I hadn't thought of that. But I do recognize that my day has come and gone. My son is a definite techie, but I'm fortunate that he also inherited the abilty to do realistic carvings.

 

[TyrantDesigner]

I want to thank the lowball signshop that rolled the paint on a monument sign and directionals at a large apartment complex for a large management company. Not only was the color wrong, but the thick foam tape on the poorly cut PVC lettering and graphics, uncured paint texture and exposed rivets on the faces of all the signs were really a nice touch. My client no longer has to worry about his client taking signage out to bid for quite a while as your poorly crafted signs were standing next to my client's clean, well finished signs.

Oh, that did feel better...

Holy crap! That is bad!

 

[Rick]

Holy crap! That is bad!

It is!!! And what a few sign shops do not know, or care to know is, apartment signage is more than the monument signs. Most of the profitable work is the rest of it. This clown could have made an impression, got his foot in the door, and had a great client. Now he is the guy they will never use.

 

[TyrantDesigner]

It is!!! And what a few sign shops do not know, or care to know is, apartment signage is more than the monument signs. Most of the profitable work is the rest of it. This clown could have made an impression, got his foot in the door, and had a great client. Now he is the guy they will never use.

Oh how I know that to be true. Did a job at an old shop which was just a bunch of 3x3 aluminum signs that we had screen printed to say "Pull alarm in case of fire" and installed 120 of those things around an apartment complex right next to their fire alarms in the hallways ... charged twice as much as we normally would since everyone in the shop was there for the day running around with silicone guns, and then was asked to do all their sandblasted wood signs for the apartment numbers, asked to repaint and/or replace all their door number plates, etc. I loved working on those jobs ... easy, full of potential for more work and always a chance to go the extra little bit for a "wow" impression.

 

[Bobby H]

Thing with the computer programs you still have to know what you are doing in order for it to turn out right.

This is true. Unfortunately there is enough customers out there who can't tell the difference between good and bad design. They only want to pay less and in doing so they keep a lot of hacks in business.

Pierre, you are leaving yourself wide open for a slamming from the vinyl jockies with this post. There are more here than there are "brush slingers".

I don't know how a "vinyl jockey" could legitimately slam someone who can draw and paint letters by hand precisely. Hand made signs (carved, painted, etc.) have a certain charm to them that can't be achieved with a computer. Just about anyone can type some lettering in a graphics program and send it to a vinyl cutter. That's easy. It's more difficult creating eye catching designs. Hand lettering using a paint brush isn't easy. But it's kind of fun if you can do it.

Effects filters fall apart when trying to copy certain visuals one can do with hand carving, like doing prismatic bevels on letters. Every bevel filter in every graphics programs stinks at this because the filters cannot figure out the corners and joins. The end result is rounded and stupid looking. It requires human thought and skilled human hands to make the corners and joins sharp. Nevertheless, lots of people keep applying Photoshop's Inner Bevel filter at maximum setting on letters regardless of how bad the end result looks.

 

[Latigo]

This is Latigo's very first solo carving. It's a 7' x 8'. The Doc brought in his own Lab, his wife's long haired Chihuahua and the Clinic blood donor cat. We illustrated them directly on the PM and the chips flew. When the dust settled, this is what Lat had done. Not bad for a first time.

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