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I remember..

Johnny Best

Active Member
When everyone complained about people posting problems about their solvent printers and how to fix them. Oh, and the "outgassing" arguments. Some people even quit coming on here because that is all the posts were about.
THEN, the HP latex printer arrives that will solve all your problems. Quick lamination, no dried out heads, hitting the right colors, speed and changing out your own heads with a simple plug and play.
Now, I see all sorts of problems surfacing about latex printers on here. Not hitting colors or grays. Discontinued support or supplies for past printers and so on and so on. History repeats itself.
 

Bobby H

Arial Sucks.
Our shop has a pair of HP Latex printers. We added the second printer a couple or so years after getting the first one. They're certainly not perfect, but they were a big step up from the "eco-solvent" Roland VersaCAMM printer we used previously. Our shop also has a flatbed printer, purchased more recently.

None of this stuff is meant to last forever. Any device that depends on computer chips, IC boards, etc will eventually fail permanently. All it takes is the failure of one component that is no longer made to turn any electronics device into a door stop. I've been at my workplace going back to the early 1990's. Every computer, office printer, vinyl cutter, digital printer, routing table, etc has been replaced multiple times since then.

A revolving door of hardware is to be expected. Keeping archived computer files "alive" is another problem that is potentially worse. Many changes have happened on the software end of things. There are plenty of "dead" graphics applications whose files are no longer supported. Computer files in early versions of certain graphics applications are no longer supported in the newer versions of that application (cough, CorelDRAW). Adobe is removing support for Postscript Type 1 fonts from its applications over the next couple years. That should go over well for anyone who has spent a good amount of money on Type 1 fonts in the past. OpenType fonts have been around for about 20 years. Now we have Variable Fonts and SVG "color" fonts. It never ends.
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
Unfortunately, some of this is compounded with other "things" as well. Our ability to fix things (or have a 3rd party fix things) is actually getting less and less. I remember in the 90s, be it cameras, computers, we had detailed manuals (yes, end customers had those from the get go) on what was needed etc to fix things on our own. Did kids blow up for doing the wrong things? Were trade secrets leaked out etc? Most of those companies are still around and thriving today. Under the guise of protect the kids, more secure (which a lot of times is BS), or the biggest one of them all, convenience.

While yes, updating is necessary from time to time, I would submit that the natural upgrade cycle is getting less and less and that it is due to external desires to make it so, not due to the natural degradation of the products themselves.

I'm seeing now, all in one printers, the scanning function won't work if there is no ink (or the firmware senses that there isn't any ink), while that isn't repair, it is an example of what is going on. Even worse for IoT devices as well (which most of us use, but I do consider other items that perhaps people on here wouldn't consider IoT devices as well, at least not the more traditional IoT devices).

New requirements of new software renders even some of the more recently purchased hardware useless.

Since subscription based tools (most notably software) has gained traction and people are used to needing to be on the latest and greatest, people just expect it as par for the course. Even with hardware.

I will say this, keeping older software around, is (relatively speaking) one of the easier things that we can do, especially if going back to the 90s or earlier (if for whatever reason want to keep software that old alive). Even to the late aughts, it's still relatively simple for quite a lot of programs. Keeping older hardware around and working will depend on the individual situation far more compared to software.

While a revolving door of replacement is to be expected, if that revolving door gets any faster, it's going to need it's own hurricane name.
 
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James Burke

Being a grandpa is more fun than working
When everyone complained about people posting problems about their solvent printers and how to fix them. Oh, and the "outgassing" arguments. Some people even quit coming on here because that is all the posts were about.
THEN, the HP latex printer arrives that will solve all your problems. Quick lamination, no dried out heads, hitting the right colors, speed and changing out your own heads with a simple plug and play.
Now, I see all sorts of problems surfacing about latex printers on here. Not hitting colors or grays. Discontinued support or supplies for past printers and so on and so on. History repeats itself.
I long for a hypothetical world-wide power outage that lasts for one month.

I'm sure the narrative would be totally different once we all gathered again. Our grit, creativity and concern for humankind would never be the same....and hopefully for the better.




JB
 

James Burke

Being a grandpa is more fun than working
While a revolving door of replacement is to be expected, if that revolving door gets any faster, it's going to need it's own hurricane name.
Nailed it. Is it any wonder why the arts and crafts movement (manual trades) seems to be making a wildly astounding comeback?

I'm not saying we should become Luddites, but FFS....it sure wouldn't hurt to make strides towards simplification instead of being pulled along by "the machine".

JB
 

Johnny Best

Active Member
Realize things wear down and get replaced. Just like all of us have aged through the years. If your tool does not work like it use to they have a blue pill for that.
My point being that people complain with whatever product they have. It use to be solvents and now it is latex. Back then latex was going to solve everyone’s problem. It seems it is falling in line with what use to be solvent problems.People who responded to this I assumed would understand but I see they missed my point, and I know that I should not assume things.
 

Notarealsignguy

Arial - it's almost helvetica
Outgassing pretty much explains everything that is wrong in the world today. Latex is like the giant Ponzi scheme that came along, solved all of the problems until a few years pass by and you realize that thing took off all of your savings. Rumor has it that HP was started by PT Barnum.
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
My point being that people complain with whatever product they have. It use to be solvents and now it is latex. Back then latex was going to solve everyone’s problem. It seems it is falling in line with what use to be solvent problems.People who responded to this I assumed would understand but I see they missed my point, and I know that I should not assume things.

No, it's people just wanting the latest thing, because they figure that the latest thing would be better compared to what was before. May be true, may not be true. Time is the only thing that actually is able to tell if something gets solved or not with new tech. I am actually thinking that more things are regressing compared to actually solving things. Especially considering that there is that competing notion of removing abilities of the end user from doing things on their own. Why I would always suggest not getting on the latest and greatest or if you must, do it piece meal, that way there is something to fall back on.

I've got one machine that stock nozzle is ok, but when it went out (which doesn't take long), I upgraded to a better one (can handle higher temps etc, not an ink printer, I should have led with that), now the machine uses standard threading size for it's nozzle, just about any 3rd party nozzle can work with it. Some machines, particularly your higher end ones, use custom thread sizes, which means their own nozzles (sometimes other consumables as well) are the only ones that are able to be used. Which means, not able to upgrade to that part on your own for a better experience and/or if the OEM decides not to have those consumables available, have to upgrade the machine or go to another OEM. While I don't necessarily expect any one OEM to continuously keep making parts for older machines that they no longer sell/support, having ones parts use universal fittings, sizes etc, I do think is reasonable to ask. As time goes on, I'm far more likely to spend money with OEMs that do that, compared to those that do not (now that isn't everyone, especially considering the vendors that do, also charge more).

Even if I get something new that is not perfect, if I am able to on my own upgrade those flaws, I would prefer that, compared to a vendor that has my machine in a walled garden. Which doesn't help with people's perception and probably feeding into that everyone complains with the product that they have.

I didn't mind that my 6.0 had issues with the head bolts as I was able to use 3rd party and still get it done myself. With the 6.4 and on, whole different ball game and only getting worse.
 

Bobby H

Arial Sucks.
While a revolving door of replacement is to be expected, if that revolving door gets any faster, it's going to need it's own hurricane name.

I'm seeing the reverse of that in some categories, such as desktop and notebook computers. Back in the 1980's and 1990's personal computers had pretty limited useful life spans. I used three different desktop PCs at my workplace in the 1990's. 20-30 years ago each new generation of CPUs was a big leap above the previous one. Today the gains are more incremental. Most computing tasks require only so much "horsepower." I have a new PC on order to replace my current work desktop, which is 9 years old.

Today it is not difficult to squeeze a decade of productive use out of a desktop PC or even a notebook. It doesn't require a top of the line, high end product to achieve that kind of product life span either. My old 2011 Dell XPS 15 notebook lasted me 10 years before I bought an Alienware X17 as a replacement. A couple years ago I replaced the original hard drive in the XP5-15 with a 1TB SSD and I bumped the RAM from 8GB to 16GB. Lately the keyboard was acting up. That was a clear enough clue the notebook needed to be retired. Plus the newest versions of Adobe and Corel software ran way too slow and was even limited on some GPU-enhanced features, like animated zoom in Adobe Illustrator. I held out long enough before finally upgrading.

I think the same cycle is starting to happen with smart phones. People are holding onto those longer. Maybe one reason is the ridiculous prices of the phones. Who wants to drop $1000 or more on a phone and get rid of it in 2 years?

In an industry-specific market like signs, we are vulnerable to different kinds of walled gardens and planned obsolescence with devices made just for this industry. I think it can be pretty hazardous when selling and maintaining LED-based variable message signs. Just here in Lawton there is at least a dozen "OEM" message boards now sitting permanently dark because they can't be repaired due to no replacement parts. That is one big reason why we've always sold units from more reputable American brands, like Daktronics and Time-O-Matic/Watchfire.
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
I'm seeing the reverse of that in some categories, such as desktop and notebook computers. Back in the 1980's and 1990's personal computers had pretty limited useful life spans. I used three different desktop PCs at my workplace in the 1990's. 20-30 years ago each new generation of CPUs was a big leap above the previous one. Today the gains are more incremental. Most computing tasks require only so much "horsepower." I have a new PC on order to replace my current work desktop, which is 9 years old.


And yet some computers purchased a year or two ago don't qualify for the "mandatory" specs for Win 11. With the original preview build, some were able to still install it, but I think they had issues with the "official" Win 11 release. That's the type that I am referring to. It's not necessarily the components themselves that are failing quicker rate compared to yesteryear (although for some things that is definitely true, I'm not thinking desktop/laptop related), but it's the arbitrary requirements that are put on newer ones that limit even moderate young devices to still be used. Even though resource wise, they can handle the newer software.
Today it is not difficult to squeeze a decade of productive use out of a desktop PC or even a notebook. It doesn't require a top of the line, high end product to achieve that kind of product life span either. My old 2011 Dell XPS 15 notebook lasted me 10 years before I bought an Alienware X17 as a replacement. A couple years ago I replaced the original hard drive in the XP5-15 with a 1TB SSD and I bumped the RAM from 8GB to 16GB. Lately the keyboard was acting up. That was a clear enough clue the notebook needed to be retired. Plus the newest versions of Adobe and Corel software ran way too slow and was even limited on some GPU-enhanced features, like animated zoom in Adobe Illustrator. I held out long enough before finally upgrading.

Oh sure, could get a decade of use, probably more if didn't update it (certainly not a 10 year old computer updating to Win 11) or it's software. Kept it off the internet for most things (I would argue for all things). Production machines can last a long time. Even more if one goes with something that allows you to fix things (even on laptops) that wouldn't necessarily be so easy on your mainstream OEMs. Downside is that the cost to performance may take a hit. But if the OS is actually optimized for the hardware that one is using, can get away with different specs and don't need to shoehorn something thru bruteforce of just pouring on the RAM to it etc.

However, the constant updating of the device, at some point that device isn't going to get the latest upgrade (and that actually did happen to some Win 10 computers that got on Win 10, but could only go so far) and it's more likely going to have to be retired. Because devices are all now becoming more or less IoT devices, always connected (mainly because the software that one uses always has to be connected as some feature (and for checking your subscription status) has to be connected to be used), it's always got to be updated, otherwise it's a security issue. And this isn't even getting into the quality of said updates and what those updates actually deliver to the device.
I think the same cycle is starting to happen with smart phones. People are holding onto those longer. Maybe one reason is the ridiculous prices of the phones. Who wants to drop $1000 or more on a phone and get rid of it in 2 years?

That's why I love the Pine Phone. Not as expensive, has a true OS on it and even though the performance isn't at the same numbers (just looking at numbers on a spec sheet), because that OS is tailored for the hardware, it runs incredibly well (compared to Android that is). There are other benefits, not having a product from the big two OEMs of mobile is a big one in my mind, but others may not find that as such.
In an industry-specific market like signs, we are vulnerable to different kinds of walled gardens and planned obsolescence with devices made just for this industry.
It doesn't have to be an industry specific. This type of "culture", if you will, has permeated thru everything. It's become normalized to where people think that it is a good thing (security, convenience etc) when it really isn't. When people continue buying the products, things continue on the same lines. Now it isn't as easy to switch if they all do it, but if one doesn't get push back on something, the others follow suite.

There are certain companies, if you were to watch and see if they get clapback on something or not. If they don't get it in any significant numbers, the others will follow eventually. May not be right away, but they will follow eventually. The irony is, those same companies that held back, used to run ads that mocked those changes and just a few short years later, they are doing the same thing.

The fact that ownership and what it means to own the hardware that we use has changed drastically, that also allows for far less control for us. And it isn't just in the sign industry.

And some of this, I think at least tangentially bleeds into Johnny's observation. It's just getting people on new things, thinking that the new thing is better. When it's ultimately just the same ole same ole, just less end user friendly with a worse EULA (the thing that most people don't bother reading).
 

Bobby H

Arial Sucks.
Specifically, which computers that are just one year old cannot install Windows 11? That sounds like a serious exaggeration. If such a thing is happening the computers must be bare bones, entry level models or ones with some kind of minimal configuration. Regarding the appeal of Windows 11, how many people actually want to install it? The user uptake of Windows 11 will face serious head-winds for at least the next year.

My new Alienware notebook streamrolls way beyond the qualification line to run Windows 11, but I have no desire at all to install Win 11 on it any time soon. We have two new PCs on order at my workplace, one for me and another designer, and both will be loaded with Win 10 Pro.

Regarding what it takes to keep a computer "alive" for 9 or 10 years, or even longer, I had zero problem doing that with the systems connected to the Internet and keeping them current with updates to Windows 7, 8, 8.1 and 10. My notebook went from Win 7 Ultimate to Win 10 Pro. My old desktop went from Win 8 to 8.1 to 10. The old desktop PC is still fully operational. It's just getting slow at booting and running apps like CorelDRAW. So it's definitely a legit time to upgrade.

I don't really know anything about the Pine Phone, nor do I really care. I've gotten six years of life out of a Samsung Note 5 and am now ready to replace it since the battery is finally losing its ability to hold a charge. It's very likely I'll replace it with another Samsung phone.

Regarding ownership of hardware or software, it's all temporary. None of us will own the stuff forever. I used to just laugh at these public displays of various big wigs, college students or whoever placing a computer disc of some type into a time capsule for others to un-earth 100 or more years from now. Today I consider such PR events to be very insulting. The general public shouldn't be patronized with such stupidity.
 

Boudica

I'm here for Educational Purposes
So, to summarize... Thank god for talent, and little blue pills. Humanity will Carry on, with or without electricity.
 

Johnny Best

Active Member
So, to summarize... Thank god for talent, and little blue pills. Humanity will Carry on, with or without electricity.
Almost, distract people from complaining about printers, software with a different subject. Take a little blue pill and use battery powered toys so you won't need electric.
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
I rememebr when none of this sh!t was even a dream. It took hand/eye coordination and some talent, be it raw or cultivated. The problems of today are ALL built-in obsolescence. It's silly to see what this industry has turned into. Ya can't find paint that'll cover worth a sh!t. Ya can't find a printer that will give ya more than a few years of faithful use. Ya can't find decent employees and if ya can, they aren't really sign people. Ya can't find anyone who agrees with another person on terminology. Ya can't find anyone who can draw a stick figure, let alone do any calculations in their head without a computer.

Can anyone here draw an oval with out tracing it or producing it on a plotter ??
Can anyone here mix colors together to match some specific color ??
Does anyone here understand the color wheel ??
Does anyone know how to build basic elements without looking it up on the internet ??
Can anyone do just about anything without the internet ??
Who knows how to use a scale ruler ??
 

Johnny Best

Active Member
I rememebr when none of this sh!t was even a dream. It took hand/eye coordination and some talent, be it raw or cultivated. The problems of today are ALL built-in obsolescence. It's silly to see what this industry has turned into. Ya can't find paint that'll cover worth a sh!t. Ya can't find a printer that will give ya more than a few years of faithful use. Ya can't find decent employees and if ya can, they aren't really sign people. Ya can't find anyone who agrees with another person on terminology. Ya can't find anyone who can draw a stick figure, let alone do any calculations in their head without a computer.

Can anyone here draw an oval with out tracing it or producing it on a plotter ??
Can anyone here mix colors together to match some specific color ??
Does anyone here understand the color wheel ??
Does anyone know how to build basic elements without looking it up on the internet ??
Can anyone do just about anything without the internet ??
Who knows how to use a scale ruler ??
Sounds like Gino has a hard on about where the industry has gone.
 
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