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I still want to know....

Pat Whatley

New Member
...if acrylic outgasses how come I've used hundreds of sheets over the years and I've never seen a bubble in the protective liner?

(I've also never had vinyl develop bubbles from outgassing but that's another post)
 
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iSign

New Member
it's all in the dual purge valvular thermal dynamic cellular membrane osmosis viscosity
 

SignManiac

New Member
The molecular density of the liner is less than vinyl which allows for vaporization to occur. It also has a negative charged surface area whereas vinyl is positively charged.
 

Mike Paul

Super Active Member
http://www.rtape.com/resources/tips/how-to-prevent-bubbles

Some plastics can absorb moisture from the air. These materials fall into the category called "hygroscopic plastics". The best known product in this group is polycarbonate. It's not, however, the only hygroscopic plastic. Nylon and polyester can also absorb water vapor.

Water vapor isn't the only substance that polycarbonate sheet can absorb. Researchers have discovered that polycarbonate can also become saturated with oxygen.

While absorption of moisture and oxygen isn't always a problem, it can be, especially when you are decorating the sheet with vinyl graphics. As the plastic outgases, bubbles can form under the applied vinyl graphics.

Moisture in polycarbonate sheet is also an issue for sign makers, who are thermoforming signs. Here's why. Sure the heating in the thermoforming process will drive out moisture, just as it will in a recirculating oven. But the heat is higher. Much, much higher. Exposed to this high heat, the moisture rapidly boils off, turning into a gas. As the trapped moisture is explodes from the sheet, tiny craters or pit marks can form on its surface.

As a rule of thumb, polycarbonate sheets should be dried before decoration. At the very least, you need 180°F to drive off the moisture. At that temperature, it takes a long time to dry out a sheet - 12 or more hours. The manufacturers of polycarbonate recommend a much higher temperature. To drive the moisture out of a polycarbonate sheet the typical recipe for successful vinyl application is to pop it in a hot air recirculating oven at for 250° F for at least four hours.

Drying times will vary depending on the thickness of the sheet. A ¼" sheet may take as long as 24 hours for drying. For specific advice on procedures for drying polycarbonate sheet, read the manufacturer's technical bulletins covering processing and then follow their instructions. As the saying goes, it's only good advice if you take it.

Some people feel that you can avoid many problems if you keep the plastic sheet wrapped in the plastic that it comes in, or if you use it immediately after you receive it. While this advice sounds good, it's no substitute for pre-drying the sheet. It is a misconception that the plastic wrap covering pallet load of polycarbonate provides adequate protection from moisture. All the plastic wrap does is to protect the sheet from dirt. While bags of desiccant underneath the skid may help to a certain extent keeping the sheets drier, it may not be enough.

Others recommend removing the surface protection film laminated to the polycarbonate sheet to allow it to naturally outgas any water vapor. Lots of luck. Let's dispel that myth right now. Polycarbonate does not outgas, only absorbs moisture in its natural state. Removing the masking will accelerate the moisture absorption. It's actually better to keep the surface protection film on to minimize the absorption of moisture. With the masking on, only the edges of the sheet are exposed.

Unfortunately, we don't live in a protective bubble and nobody stores their polycarbonate sheet in one either, whether they are a manufacturer, distributor or sign maker. Polycarbonate is kept in warehouses, some of which become very humid in certain parts of the country. The safest course of action is to pre-dry the sheets according the manufacturer's instructions.

Maybe...
 

signmeup

New Member
The molecular density of the liner is less than vinyl which allows for vaporization to occur. It also has a negative charged surface area whereas vinyl is positively charged.
Um... if the liner allows outgassing... why hasn't it outgassed already?
 

signmeup

New Member
http://www.rtape.com/resources/tips/how-to-prevent-bubbles

Some plastics can absorb moisture from the air. These materials fall into the category called "hygroscopic plastics". The best known product in this group is polycarbonate. It's not, however, the only hygroscopic plastic. Nylon and polyester can also absorb water vapor.

Water vapor isn't the only substance that polycarbonate sheet can absorb. Researchers have discovered that polycarbonate can also become saturated with oxygen.

While absorption of moisture and oxygen isn't always a problem, it can be, especially when you are decorating the sheet with vinyl graphics. As the plastic outgases, bubbles can form under the applied vinyl graphics.

Moisture in polycarbonate sheet is also an issue for sign makers, who are thermoforming signs. Here's why. Sure the heating in the thermoforming process will drive out moisture, just as it will in a recirculating oven. But the heat is higher. Much, much higher. Exposed to this high heat, the moisture rapidly boils off, turning into a gas. As the trapped moisture is explodes from the sheet, tiny craters or pit marks can form on its surface.

As a rule of thumb, polycarbonate sheets should be dried before decoration. At the very least, you need 180°F to drive off the moisture. At that temperature, it takes a long time to dry out a sheet - 12 or more hours. The manufacturers of polycarbonate recommend a much higher temperature. To drive the moisture out of a polycarbonate sheet the typical recipe for successful vinyl application is to pop it in a hot air recirculating oven at for 250° F for at least four hours.

Drying times will vary depending on the thickness of the sheet. A ¼" sheet may take as long as 24 hours for drying. For specific advice on procedures for drying polycarbonate sheet, read the manufacturer's technical bulletins covering processing and then follow their instructions. As the saying goes, it's only good advice if you take it.

Some people feel that you can avoid many problems if you keep the plastic sheet wrapped in the plastic that it comes in, or if you use it immediately after you receive it. While this advice sounds good, it's no substitute for pre-drying the sheet. It is a misconception that the plastic wrap covering pallet load of polycarbonate provides adequate protection from moisture. All the plastic wrap does is to protect the sheet from dirt. While bags of desiccant underneath the skid may help to a certain extent keeping the sheets drier, it may not be enough.

Others recommend removing the surface protection film laminated to the polycarbonate sheet to allow it to naturally outgas any water vapor. Lots of luck. Let's dispel that myth right now. Polycarbonate does not outgas, only absorbs moisture in its natural state. Removing the masking will accelerate the moisture absorption. It's actually better to keep the surface protection film on to minimize the absorption of moisture. With the masking on, only the edges of the sheet are exposed.

Unfortunately, we don't live in a protective bubble and nobody stores their polycarbonate sheet in one either, whether they are a manufacturer, distributor or sign maker. Polycarbonate is kept in warehouses, some of which become very humid in certain parts of the country. The safest course of action is to pre-dry the sheets according the manufacturer's instructions.

Maybe...

This is all very nice info but it has little to do with appling vinyl to polycarbinate sheets. It's adressing the thermoforming of said sheets.

Moisture in substrates used in thermoforming is an area where I have some practicle experience. Moisture present in plastics to be thermoformed will cause bubbles and blisters, ruining the part. Styrene is particularly bad for absorbing moisture.

The bubbles are caused by the moisture rapidly changing to steam during the forming process. In order for this to occur the plasic has to be heated to the point of near melting (or in the "plastic" state) otherwise the material will not be pliable enough to form the undesired bubbles.

Anyone here ever heat polycarb to it's plastic state after appling vinyl? I'm guessing about the same number who bake their sign blanks for 4 hours at 250 degrees prior to lettering them.
 

MikePro

New Member
i've never had any stock substrate, acrylic/polycarb/aluminum/steel/sintra/etc., "outgas" bubbles into my vinyl.
Only issue i've ever had with outgassing is waiting less than 2 days for paint to dry on a panel.... although for car paint jobs, I tend to wait WAY longer after once being told by my auto body guy that I shouldn't wax my car for at least 2 months after getting a side panel replaced/repainted. I've made clients come back weeks later to make sure their graphics are done right.
 

Fred Weiss

Merchant Member
Well I've had it happen to me. It was a job where we replaced the faces with new Lexan polycarbonate on three two sided cabinets. The faces were lettered in-house with cut 3M translucent lettering and sat overnight in our shop. They were taken to the job site and installed the next morning. Everything was visually perfect and bubble free. We received a call later that day about some bubbles and, by the time we got back out there, there were more bubbles under the letters than there was vinyl remaining stuck to the faces.

We peels it all off, replaced it all with the same recut vinyl, reinstalled and there was no repeat of it. My conclusion was that the sun raised the temperature and set off the outgassing and by the time we relettered the faces the ability to outgas had been exhausted. In effect, the time that they were out in the heat was sufficient to bake the faces to the point where outgassing was no longer a problem.

That was more than 20 years ago. These days most polycarbonate manufacturers treat one side against outgassing and mark it as the application side.
 

Fred Weiss

Merchant Member
really? The lexan we use are double sided treated..

That could well be. The last time I handled any polycarbonate was at least five years ago. My understanding, which is quite possibly an incorrect assumption, was that it was one sided so as to allow all outgassing to occur on the other side.

I would wonder then if this treatment might, in fact, vary from brand to brand and might not even be present on some brands available?
 

signmeup

New Member
That could well be. The last time I handled any polycarbonate was at least five years ago. My understanding, which is quite possibly an incorrect assumption, was that it was one sided so as to allow all outgassing to occur on the other side.

I would wonder then if this treatment might, in fact, vary from brand to brand and might not even be present on some brands available?
The "treatment" is UV coating to prevent the sun from yellowing it so fast. They only do one side to save money.
 

Custom_Grafx

New Member
Re acrylic;

I have been advised that vinyl doesn't bubble because it can breathe - but that chrome polyester films cannot, so they bubble if the material isn't outgassed properly.

I used to leave acrylic pieces sit overnight for vinyl lettering jobs, but not anymore, and I still haven't seen any bubbles... so I'm guessing this is true?
 

S'N'S

New Member
Never had any problems with bubbles, peel protective sheet off, clean with metho thoroughly with one hand and buff of with a clean cloth in the other before it evaporates and coat with translucent vinyl (I always apply to inside). NEVER had a problem.
 

Mainframe

New Member
What happened to Fred also happened to me, only it happened about 2 years ago, it was on a 3 foot by 14 foot digital print on trans, with lam, double strike & all, redid it & no more problem, ouch! I always read about outgassing but I never believed it, I am a believer now, I also don't believe in ghosts, I hope I don't learn that one the hard way also.
 
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