Discussion ICC profile making

[Mata]

Hi everyone

I’ve now got flex 22 installed and connected. Previously when I’ve used onyx I have always setup my own profiles, mainly because media suppliers don’t really have any and I found I always got better colours. I tend to go overboard with the passes so I’m here asking for advice.

Firstly, in flexi 22, I have the option for 2bit or 8bit. What is this?

Secondly, what pass rate do you use for your projects?

T-shirt vinyl, I want to do a high quality print as it will be close to the eye, vehicle graphics, good enough but quick enough that it doesn’t take all day to print a wrap.

What do you guys use?

Finally, when limiting the ink, I know people do this by eye but I’ve also seen people measure this by the delta value. What value should yellow, magenta and cyan be if I did measure this instead of going just by eye?

 

[FrankW]

Most of your questions are dependent on what printer you use, but you dont mention that. So it is not possible to give you any advice.

If the RIP-software offers the possibility to measure the ink limit, you dont need to set the ink limit manually.

 

[Mata]

That would help.
I'm running an Epson s60600

 

[FrankW]

With a 80600, you have two possible ways to process print data: halftone and contone. 2Bits should be halftone mode, 8Bits contone. If you want to have real access to ink limits and linearisation, you should use halftone. With contone, lot of tasks regularly the RIP does is done by the printer itself, with limited access to the calibration data (ink limits and linearisation).

With the 80600, you have the possibility to use lots of canned profiles downloadable over the dashboard. They are not as good as a custom profile can be, but they could help you with your decision about passes. Just try.

 

[Mata]

Thank you. I’ve been searching all day to find out what 2 but and 8 bit was.

8bit only seems to be available on certain resolutions.

I attempted to make my first profile today, I used 2bit and it was a pretty poor print. I need to understand how to read the ink limits better. I watched a video where he looked for bleeding, I wouldn’t say I had that much, a little pooling but not much bleed. He also said to go for the most vibrant cyan and magenta but not sure if that’s right or not.

Have you profiled the Epsom using flexi? I’d be interested to know your process.

I got ok results with my own profiles in Onyx but I think I could have got better. I think I printed on to many passes, prints used to take ages and my banner profile always felt a little wet.

 

[ColorCrest]

I watched a video

Care to share the particular video?

1) Be careful and be sure of your understanding of what "ink limits" are, exactly. The term is often misused and misunderstood, especially between Onyx and Flexi.

2) Onyx" ink limits" and Flexi "multi-ink limits" are normally judged only by eye. Delta E measurements of these is "not a thing."

3) The Epson is already VERY capable of wide-gamut color printing as recommended by using its *contone* workflow. Don't disregard it unless you're completely confident with your profiling skills and experience.

More later.

 

[FrankW]

@ ColorCrest:

Flexi, as current Onyx-versions too, allow to read the CMYK-ink limits (not the multi ink limits) with a spectro … I‘m not quit shure, but I think this functionality limits the ink amount to a value were maximum density is achieved.

 

[Mata]

Here’s the link to the video. It’s quite a good video to be honest but he doesn’t have the 2bit 8bit cmyk option I have for colour mode.

How did you find what the 2bit 8bit options were?

Regarding Onyx and Flexi reading ink limits by Spectro, I don’t remember this option on Onyx and I certainly don’t see it in Flexi. I once read the values using i1profler and then babelcolor but that was some time ago and I can’t actually remember the process.

 

[Mata]

So CMYK 8bit only works if you do a 2 or 4 pass. I’d love to do either of them but I get banding.

My feed is done automatically and the nozzles are perfect.

As a rule of thumb, I read some time ago that set these printers to a max of 85% ink which is what I am trying now in a 6pass high quality.

 

[Mata]

Just found that if your change the resolution there is a Cantone option there.

 

[Mata]

My colour is way off.

My custom onyx profile (on the left) and my new flexi profile on the right. My new profile looks all washed out compared to my original.

This was printed on 6 pass high quality 720 x 1440 cantone, 85% ink limit, 95% on multi limit and about 1400 patches read.

 

[Mata]

I’m getting closer but I am still off.

Here is my latest profile. The one on the right is an 8 pass, my new profile is a 6 pass. Could this be my issue?

The new profile is:

6 pass hq
Adhesive vinyl
720x 1440 (not cantone) 2bit
Enhanced stochastic 2

Ink limits
C 70
M 70
Y 70
B 80

Multi ink limit

75 for the first 4
70 for the rest which are all darker colours

Black generation
Gcrsmooth
0% black start
100% black width
279% total ink
Profile large
Icc version 4

Everything else turned off.

See attached images of my print files for reading

 

[ColorCrest]

Mata,

I believe you're "off in the weeds," so to speak.

I recommend that you first become familiar with printing any Flexi and / or Onyx quality evaluation test files as prescribed using the appropriate original factory settings and profile. Post a photo of the print(s).

 

[ColorCrest]

@ ColorCrest:

Flexi, as current Onyx-versions too, allow to read the CMYK-ink limits (not the multi ink limits) with a spectro … I‘m not quit shure, but I think this functionality limits the ink amount to a value were maximum density is achieved.

Again, the term of "ink limits" are two different things in the two different RIPs.

Onyx will use the term of "ink restrictions" for the step which will accommodate spectrophotometer readings. Two steps later Onyx will use the term of "ink limits" which is evaluated only by eye to determine its setting.

See the linked Onyx help page content for ink limits...

https://help.onyxgfx.com/21/ProductionHouse/Content/Media Manager/Ink Limits/Ink Limit_PH.htm

 

[Mata]

Without wanting to abuse your kindness would you be so kind as to talk me through step by step what you would do with a fresh install of windows and flexi 22

I’m trying to find guides on how to setup the printer by other than what I’ve done so far I’m lost. I’ve gone through the SAI website and it’s not the easiest to work through.

I don’t see any default profiles, I’m starting to wonder if I have deleted these so a fresh install might be on the cards. It’s a new setup so there’s nothing on the computer that I need and a reinstallstion of everything won’t take long at all.

 

[netsol]

this is the video for flexi 19.
flexi has native support for xrite i1's
i believe you need to have the cmyk license for your i1 in order to install the downloaded software from xrite in order to build profiles for onyx
we do everything in flexi, because of the native support

first print the test files colorcrest suggested
evaluate your print quality and the state of your printer

 

[Mata]

So according to that video, I’m pretty much there? Perhaps I could go higher on my multi ink limit as that video said to start at 100% and go down until there’s a visible change or that’s how I saw it.

 

[netsol]

you do your ink limits by looking at the print quality with a loupe.
enough ink for fuull rich color but no bleed or spread
each color will be different don't just set them all the same

 

[netsol]

did you see a substantial difference after scanning the print & allowing the software to makevthe corrections?

 

[Mata]

That’s the only thing that Video lacks and the part I feel is causing me issues. I suppose once you know what you are looking for, then you’re good.

When i print, I don’t really get any bleed, it starts pooling but the white stripes lol pretty much the same in my eyes. There is a bit or pooling and someone once said do the touch test with your finger I.e once printed, run your finger over the print and look for one that has a slight tack to it.