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If somebody has not paid for a sign, do we have the right to go take it back?

Richard2717

New Member
Here is what I have in mine.

It is understood that the materials covered under this contract, are and shall remain the property of XXXXX LLC. until such time that the contract amount and any other amounts that are due for said materials is paid for in full, according to terms herein. In the event of default in any of the provisions herein, XXXXXXX LLC. shall have the right to enter upon the premises and take possession of the materials. Also XXXXXX LLC is released from any liability for damages of any kind, or character resulting from the removal of said materials, whether the damage be to building, premises, or otherwise. XXXXXX LLC. may further enforce its rights to possession by any legal action or any other method or combination of methods available. Purchaser specifically waives any right to a hearing prior to the immediate possession thereof by XXXXXX LLC Removal of materials consists of the removal of all materials used in the removal and re-installation existing signs and or lighting, and does not include the removal of the concrete base or any permanent base materials which was installed to erect the signs and or lights.

In the event, the customer shall breach this contract, including default in payment the entire contract balance shall become due immediately due and payable. In the event that this contract, upon default of any provisions herein, be placed in the hands of an attorney for the purpose of collection, the customer agrees to pay a reasonable attorneys fee of 30% of the amount due hereunder, together with court costs and interest from the date of judgment, including actual costs or physically repossessing the property.

With that said I have enforced it on 4 occasions. On 3 of those occasions everything worked exactly as outlined in the contract. I made numerous attempts by phone, in person and by certified mail. In the certified mail I stated this would be the last attempt to resolve the situation between us and non payment after 10 days of the letter would escalate to the next level. No attempt was made to contact me during those ten days even though I got the certified pc back signed by the customer. 5 am on a Friday morning I showed up and removed said signs from business. 10am I get a call from him letting me know I stole his signs. I told him to read his contract, then show me where he paid it in full. He could not and then changed his attitude from hard ass to pleading with me to come put them back up ( was a popular restaurant) and he would give me a check after they were back up. I told him that is not how it works at this point and that option expired at the end of the 10 day letter. Now you will need to come to my office with cash for the balance owed, The $xxx for removal of the signs as well as $xxxx for reinstalling the signs. If it will involve us working after 130pm today overtime will cost you this much. It ended up that he brought me cash late that afternoon for everything except the overtime. He told me early Monday would suffice. He shook my hand & said if I had known you were serious I would have paid you and I respect you for being true to your word. That was 15 years ago and I have done several more locations since without issue.

That was the best case scenario. 4th repo I did, almost landed me in jail. Different jurisdiction and the customer happened to show up before I got it completely down. They called the cops. Cops were going to arrest me for trespassing even though I had the contract showing he ok'ed me to do it. They explained they were not allowed to interpret a contract all they were allowed to do was enforce the written law. It ended up working out in the end because the guy turned on the cops and would not let them handle it. (was a foreigner that thought he could talk to them any way he pleased) I was 2/3rds of the way removing the pole sign when they showed up. He wanted me to put it back up which I refused to do. I told the cops it was unsafe to leave as is but I had done enough work for free. They allowed me to finish removing it and I did eventually get paid to put it back up. But it could have turned bad real quick. I have not done any since because I try to be paid same day now if possible. What used to work probably does not any longer.

If I do happen to get stiffed on something now I just walk away. If you take them to court, most of the time it is a waste of time and more money. If you do get a judgement you most likely will never collect it or the lawyer ends up with the bulk of it
 

Z SIGNS

New Member
I am going through this right now. I don't really care what the law says about who's owns the sign. As far as I am concerned it's my sign until it's been paid for. Going to repro the the sign in the middle of the night. Reason for taking it down is because it got accidentally installed by mistake. Never received the final clear coat and we are taking it back to the shop to finish it. I am not wasting my time with small claims court. I'll just sit back and let them take me to court.I am looking forward to it. I'll just attach it to the side of my property. Now it's my sign if that's how the law goes.
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
You know, what I've always found amazing is that those that believe that they are in the right for what they are doing and yet, they tend not to be honest about the reason that they are there when confronted.

I've never really reconciled that "logic".

To me, and this is just my opinion on the matter (as a non lawyer, so take it for what it's worth), if I'm in the right to do something, I should be able to say the truthful reason why I'm there and what I'm doing and why.

If something doesn't go my way, I put it in a handy dandy ledger heading of "Bad Debt Expense", learn from it and protect myself from future "issues" like that.
 
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Gino

Premium Subscriber
Well, this topic comes up all the time and the findings are always the same. There's no regard for the law in most cases. So, I guess if you go to work, take a roll of scotch tape home with you, it's perfectly alright. Stealing only has to do with bad people, not you, cause you have a good reason, huh ??

I guess if y'all had better control over your terms of agreement, you wouldn't be talking about this stuff so much.

What's so hard about in your quote stating all things such as deposit, sign off on drawings, balance collection and what'll happen, if they are late or void meeting any of your terms. Oh, and don't forget who gets control of the artwork. Now, with all that in place, you now have a 100% case in your pocket. Any judge will now see you have a rock-solid way of conducting business. Save all letters, e-mails and returned receipt letters to the enduser and you have a 110% paper trail. You are now, entitled to all of it....... and if you have in your quote and invoice about collection and court fees, you can most likely get all of that back, too.
 

LilMissTrouble

New Member
Old school is to get the crew out there at the crack of dawn. Remove the sign. When it is on their building it is part of the real property. When you take it off and it is on the sidewalk, you own it. The trick is to get it off the property without anyone being there. When you have it back in your possession, don't admit you took it down, it just showed up at your shop... Old school sign guy repossession.
Lol! I know some guys .....
But...I think, as a business owner that would be a horrible idea. On the OTHER HAND, I'm old school and believe that LilMissTrouble...
Back in the day, prefered to up the ante on unpaid bills 10%... lol! Original poster...do not play by old school rules...aside from the very factual responses of the other responses..is the fact that...if you go taking down that sign, it's going to make you look kinda like a schmuk...and a bit unprofessional. You already knew the answer when you posted...pretty sure you would love for verification on taking sign..in hopes he just pays like he should have. Unfortunately, instead it's turned out to be a learning experience...there are some corrections needed in regards to any orders on credit. I always had (at the very least) a mandatory 50% upon approval of proof, another 25% before install, and remainder upon delivery/install. But I ran small shops...we made signs...if they need money...I sent them to the bank.
 

Billct2

Active Member
The answer is no, once installed it is their property. There are various legal means to collect the debt depending on the details.
And yes, people do midnight repo, I did at one shop I worked at and the cops were at the shop the next day, but we had the sign stashed in another location.
And as for old school there were those who would roll out the sign with black paint, it would make the sign a useless eyesore and let everyone know they were a deadbeat.
 

ddarlak

Go Bills!
i probably wouldn't now because it's not worth it and I don't put myself in that situation but back in the DOTCOM era I ripped a nice subsurface sign off of a wannabe online weather company main entrance wall.

beautiful oak finish wall, left it with hammer marks and holes.... that's probably when i learned my lesson about getting paid first
 

Deco Indy

New Member
No, it was never done like that, unless you didn't know any better. Maybe up there you can break the laws without a problem. If you can't get a deposit and the balance afterwards, then you're doing something wrong.

Next question is........ what's the reason they don't wanna pay ?? Do they feel like they received lousy work ??
You comments are generally spot on, but this time not so much. Blaming the victim is a poor choice of words. Yes, the businessman should have gotten a deposit. At least to cover expenses. But some people are just dicks and feel like they shouldn't pay. I'm sure a person as experienced as you has run into a similar problem once or twice. I've been stiffed on a final payment before. I just never did business with this person again, and their company doesn't exist any longer. They seemed to do bad things enough to go out of business. Stuff happens. But dont blame the victim. Your advice and opinion is valued by me and others, I certain.
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
Blaming the victim is a poor choice of words. Yes, the businessman should have gotten a deposit. But dont blame the victim.

In general, without known the specifics of a situation, it's hard to see if there are other variables to take into account.

Also, how someone handles a situation like this can skew that victim perception.

Those that say that going through proper channels to get things done as a waste of time, have y'all actually considered the fact that business that indulge in illegal techniques like this are what make it that much harder to go through the legit channels to get shit done?

I have yet to see anyone that has advocated such reparations that it also didn't involve some type of deception (which seems strange as at least on person in that list would usually tell people "to go pound sand" if that person didn't like something, now it's going the more deception way of doing things. In my mind that corrupts the victim perception. Deception in general, but deception to law enforcement elevates it in my mind.

This isn't "Shady Deal at Sunny Acres" and y'all aren't Bret Maverick.
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
You comments are generally spot on, but this time not so much. Blaming the victim is a poor choice of words. Yes, the businessman should have gotten a deposit. At least to cover expenses. But some people are just dicks and feel like they shouldn't pay. I'm sure a person as experienced as you has run into a similar problem once or twice. I've been stiffed on a final payment before. I just never did business with this person again, and their company doesn't exist any longer. They seemed to do bad things enough to go out of business. Stuff happens. But dont blame the victim. Your advice and opinion is valued by me and others, I certain.

It doesn't really matter what I say or do.....or anyone else here. Those are all personal decisions. However, doing things illegally is not something I would venture to say is the correct thing to do. Therefore, I would not put in writing something so silly and wrong.

I did not blame the signguy here, but as you pointed out about me, we don't know for a fact, if the enduser was a victim here or not, either. The guy only said he hasn't been paid, nor did he distinguish if he got a deposit or had anything in writing. The only thing we know is his only question was who has the legal rights to the sign, once it's been installed. Ya see, collecting for a sign or any other item is a civil problem, but taking property off of someone else's building is now criminal law. That's why I answered what I did. There's no question about it and he knows it.... or he wouldn't be second guessing himself. Now..... what we don't know is, what this sign worth, is it up real high, has it got a deposit on it, does it have a paper trail, was the quality of the sign subpar workmanship, does the enduser feel ripped off ?? With these answers, it still won't be legal to remove the sign, but we'll all have a better understanding of what happened.... with the OP's twist on things.

We've all been tempted to take things back, especially when the money owed will help pay some bills, but that doesn't make it right. And yes, I almost got caught doing this very same thing, but I explained to the guy, on his property, unless he pays my invoice, I was gonna take his sign down. It was a nice sized sign and worth about $3,500 for the balance due. The guy already had about 6 weeks to pay it and had excuses every step of the way, so I just showed up one day and while I was talking to the guy, one of my employees was taking the sign down. The guy came out and started freaking out, so I called my attorney and he said, get the H*ll off that guys property and NOW !!! So, as we left, we passed 2 or 3 cop cars going the other way.... I guess looking for me. That's when I got my first lesson in who has rights to what I thought was my sign. That was around 1988 or so. Now, don't get me wrong, I've already threatened to take signs back, but only when I was pretty sure, the enduser didn't know his rights. However, having very strict terms and following them has practically eliminated the needs to threaten people with removal of signs.
 

equippaint

Active Member
These contracts are for civil court. It won't be a valid defense in your criminal case after you are arrested for trespassing, grand theft and vandalism. It isn't your property anymore and chances are it is not your clients either. It's all well and good to put on your contract that it remains yours until final payment but chances are that their lease agreement and precedent shows that it is the property owners once it is installed. This is why you file UCC and notice to owners, that will put you in front of them.... but still will require going to court.

I love all of the made up stories here about tearing up peoples property and destroying signs, very classy.
 

Texas_Signmaker

Very Active Signmaker
Over the last 9 years in business I've only been stiffed once on a $75 labor only deal from a real-estate agent. I probably could of collected it but it wasn't worth my time and I never did business again with the agent. I actually established a good, long-term relationship with the agent that took over his listings.

I've had someone try to re-negotiate a repair after we already had a deal and it was done, but I just threaten to file a lien on his hotel property and I got paid.

I think I pick good customers because I've rarely had problems... Mostly I get paid upfront and sometimes allow NET30 for national accounts.

Before I was in business myself, I worked at another sign shop. "We" put three post and panel real-estate signs up and on one hole they hit a fiber line. The property owner didn't want to pay the balance of the signs until "we" paid AT&T. Needless to say "we" didn't pay AT&T and cut the signs down one night. Nothing came about it after that though. Lesson learned... always file dig tickets.
 

Broome Signs

New Member
One way to retake possession of the sign is to send them a letter stating that as part of your ongoing Heath and Safety program
There sign has been chosen at random to be inspected.

tell them to expect representatives to carry out the full inspection on week commencing...
normally the client will not respond

send a team out when the premieres are closed and take the sign down and bring back to your shop.

Send a new letter stating the health and safety inspection is complete and you are happy to report no issues where found .

Add footnote
we want to reinstate the sign but our system will not allow an new installation date as the seems to be a problem with the account, please call the office to resolve the matter...
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
Hahahaaa.... I like your style and creativity, but who is gonna pay for all of these extra expenditures ??

Maybe in England you can make up government departments and not get in trouble for misrepresenting yourself, but over here, you'd be found guilty of impersonating an officer of the law, and fake letters from fake agencies. You'd be in a heap more trouble and right about now, you'd be better off, just chalking this baby up to experience and walking away, while you still can. Hence, why I asked, what is the overall out-of-pocket costs ??
 

Stacey K

I like making signs
Last month I was so mad I didn't get final payment I almost drove to a race track and removed a bunch of 18x24 aluminum signs and a 4'8' sign. However, why should I waste my time? Plus, I can't reuse the materials so then I'm 100% out the time and materials. So, I started harassing him instead. I left 2 VM per day and texted him daily. Next step was posting on his FB page that I was still awaiting payment which would have caused a real stir with his race car drivers. I also told someone who I knew would tell him that I was going to repo the signs which he bought for his race car drivers and the large sign was half paid for by a bank. Chances are the bank wouldn't be too happy with him since they gave him a bunch of sponsorship money. He got real sick of me after 1 week and paid. Of course, he still dicked me around and I had to meet him on a Saturday night - but I got paid.

Start showing up at his storefront when he has customers and ask for payment. I'm sure you will get a warning for harassment from the police before an actual ticket LOL I'm not overly proud of my methods but it worked with this loser.
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
Here's one we used back around 2004, when a guy decided to go AWOL on us. we put this 'A' frame stand out on our front lawn. Took it in every night. His name got known.............

This guy ended up going to jail for 4 years, because he screwed a buncha people. Once he was out, he still hadda wear an anklet bracelet for quite some time. we got our money in full, but it took a while beings it was hard for him to pay while in jail.
pay your bill.jpg
 

equippaint

Active Member
Here's one we used back around 2004, when a guy decided to go AWOL on us. we put this 'A' frame stand out on our front lawn. Took it in every night. His name got known.............

This guy ended up going to jail for 4 years, because he screwed a buncha people. Once he was out, he still hadda wear an anklet bracelet for quite some time. we got our money in full, but it took a while beings it was hard for him to pay while in jail. View attachment 141428
Needs more whitespace. Lettering's a bit cramped
 

ggsigns

New Member
The few times I've faced this I make a "courtesy" phone call to the property manager or landlord to give them a heads up that I'm about to file a mechanics lien on the property. I think the lien can create issues for the PM so to save themselves headaches they'll get the client to pay up
 

Stacey K

I like making signs
Here's one we used back around 2004, when a guy decided to go AWOL on us. we put this 'A' frame stand out on our front lawn. Took it in every night. His name got known.............

This guy ended up going to jail for 4 years, because he screwed a buncha people. Once he was out, he still hadda wear an anklet bracelet for quite some time. we got our money in full, but it took a while beings it was hard for him to pay while in jail. View attachment 141428
I LOVE this!!!
 
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