I'm not sure how to handle this....how would you?

[Kottwitz-Graphics]

At the first of April, I got a message from a lady through LinkedIn interested in a set of channel letters. I accepted her, and met with her a few days later. She is moving in to a location that just went through a new renovation. I contacted the management company, got the spec's, created a drawing of proposed letters. She didn't like it, so I went back, gave her a choice between 12 different fonts, and she liked 3 of them, so I put together drawings of the 3 different styles, and quoted the letters to her.

A couple of weeks go by and I contact her, just asking if she had any questions, or could I help her with anything, to which she replied that she didn't. I did it to keep it in her mind, so she hopefully wouldn't wait till the last minute.

Yesterday I got a message through LinkedIn that she made a new connection with another company about 45 minutes away. I know of the company, but I don't know if they will do the same leg work that I did, or take my drawings and just quote them. I would hope they would at least give me a call to let me know that she is shopping the design.

What would you do at this junction. Call the customer and remind her that the layouts are still mine, even though it is all laid out in the title block? Call the other company, and let them know that if she showed up with drawings, I would appreciate a heads up. Or wait and see if she comes back to order, and if not, and someone else does the letters, and they are my designs, send her a bill for the layouts?

 

[player]

I never do art on spec. I give a price, get a deposit, then do art. I'm sorry this doesn't help this time.

 

[Gino]

No one is loyal anymore, especially new customers or people for which you do free work.

The time to explain your policy(s) was in the beginning, not now after the fact. I'm afraid you don't have much of a choice, unless you wanna look and sound desperate.

 

[TheSnowman]

Might not hurt to call the other company. I have a lot of "chatter" with the other places near me about certain customers and how they handled situations, and then know going into them how to handle them, or to avoid them at all costs.

We normally do what player does. I don't always get a deposit, if it's a small job, and I've done work with the customer before, I normally just give a quote, they approve it, then we do the artwork, then go to production. If I haven't done work with them before, and they've got no connection to me or anyone I know, they generally will be asked to pay up front.

 

[OldPaint]

its the nature of the job)))))) you win some and lose some...........cant getem all)))))
i got a auto sales place here........i see their sign every time i go by it.AND STILL PISSES ME OFF!!!! and its been 8-10 years))))) I DESIGNED their sign.......and somebody else MADE IT!!!!
sooooooooooooooo..........not much you can do with aholes....who dont see any of your work as worth any money.....i also got a guy here, had me design a logo for his little airplane. ME, like a dummy handed him a full size print out off the plotter(with a pen in it)he said he liked it.....i never heard from again.....HE TRACED & PAINTED it......on the tail(both sides of his plane.........and didnt PAY ME 1 PENNY!!!!
but i guess iam lucky......only got a couple that if ever done this to me))))))

 

[DSC]

woopsie!

NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER .. do drawings without a signed or accepted agreement, or a deposit..

If they don't agree to that, don't do the work, they don't respect you anyway .. that is the tell that they will shop it..

With the position you are in now... I would consider sending her an email (so it is in writing), a nice reminder that she does not own the drawings ..

Or don't , and chalk this one up to experience ..

 

[Billct2]

You can let the client know that those designs are your property, for all the good it will do. If its just a set of letters in a font using the supplied specs I'm not sure you'd get far with a copyright claim, and how much would it be worth? This would have been a good time to use an old trick of putting incorrect specs on the drawing, not enough to be obvious just enough to ruin the job if someone steals the drawings.
Anytime I take a chance on doing a drawing to try to sell the job I accept the fact that I am potentially working for nothing

 

[Chasez]

Depending on how much time you have invested already, if it is worth it if the customer gets it done elsewhere, send them a bill for your time, if they don't pay (which I'm guessing they would tell you to go blow) put a lien on their business. That would clear it up real quick. Of course you would have to have some documentation/correspondences showing that you were working with her and producing a design (showing the drawings were your property).

Hope this helps

Chaz

 

[Gino]

NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER .. do drawings without a signed or accepted agreement, or a deposit..

If they don't agree to that, don't do the work, they don't respect you anyway .. that is the tell that they will shop it..

With the position you are in now... I would consider sending her an email (so it is in writing) a nice reminder that she does not own the drawings ..

Or don't , and chalk this one up to experience ..

How can you send a reminder, ir the person didn't know to begin with ??


There are several scenarios about what has happened here.

1. Sign person does the work up front with hopes of getting the job
2. Sign person does the work up front with hopes of getting the job and doesn't mention any of the rules of the game, to avoid confrontation
3. Sign person does the work up front with hopes of getting the job and forgets to mention any of the rules of the game
4. Sign person explains the rules, gets a deposit..... or not...... and proceeds accordingly.

Remember, the sign business is not any different than any other business, even though some of you say we're doing custom work.

Do you pay a deposit to your dentist beforehand ??
Do you go to a store and shop for furniture in your living room, but hafta give a deposit to look at it ??
When you buy paint to paint a room in your house, if you don't like the color..... can you take it back ??
If you go to a restaurant, get a meal and don't like it, do you get your money back ?? Oh, you say you didn't pay for it ahead of time ??



If you want to be professional, it should be written into your quotes at the bottom about the rights, payments and how you do business. In addition, if you don't know the person, you should verbally tell them this.
Once the rules are explained, then you are on fair ground to demand payment, but not after the fact. That's just wrong.

If you are so worried about not getting the job, just pass on it.

I'm not saying the OP did this in any fashion, but it's quite commonplace here to see these threads about people who handle things wrong and then wanna hide behind some kinda made up ruling that they can go after lost money, which was never theirs to begin with.

 

[DSC]

How can you send a reminder, ir the person didn't know to begin with ??


There are several scenarios about what has happened here.

1. Sign person does the work up front with hopes of getting the job
2. Sign person does the work up front with hopes of getting the job and doesn't mention any of the rules of the game, to avoid confrontation
3. Sign person does the work up front with hopes of getting the job and forgets to mention any of the rules of the game
4. Sign person explains the rules, gets a deposit..... or not...... and proceeds accordingly.

Remember, the sign business is not any different than any other business, even though some of you say we're doing custom work.

Do you pay a deposit to your dentist beforehand ??
Do you go to a store and shop for furniture in your living room, but hafta give a deposit to look at it ??
When you buy paint to paint a room in your house, if you don't like the color..... can you take it back ??
If you go to a restaurant, get a meal and don't like it, do you get your money back ?? Oh, you say you didn't pay for it ahead of time ??



If you want to be professional, it should be written into your quotes at the bottom about the rights, payments and how you do business. In addition, if you don't know the person, you should verbally tell them this.
Once the rules are explained, then you are on fair ground to demand payment, but not after the fact. That's just wrong.

If you are so worried about not getting the job, just pass on it.

I'm not saying the OP did this in any fashion, but it's quite commonplace here to see these threads about people who handle things wrong and then wanna hide behind some kinda made up ruling that they can go after lost money, which was never theirs to begin with.

Alright, take it easy there killer ...

I get what you are saying, but I was being a little sarcastic there about the "reminder" .. Was meant to be taken with a grain of common sense .

And about this part

"Do you pay a deposit to your dentist beforehand ??
Do you go to a store and shop for furniture in your living room, but hafta give a deposit to look at it ??
When you buy paint to paint a room in your house, if you don't like the color..... can you take it back ??
If you go to a restaurant, get a meal and don't like it, do you get your money back ?? Oh, you say you didn't pay for it ahead of time ??"

Those arguments don't hold water because

1) Yes every month I pay insurance and they take my co-pay when I get in ..
2) No, but you get to see samples and quality (ala portfolio book), prior to deciding if you want to buy from that company .
3) NO, but you can look at the colors they offer on the shelf on a card prior they have pre made "proofs" if you will .. And they only offer a limited set of colors .. so there model is different, I don't believe you can compare
4) Sometimes yes, absolutely .. depends if you eat it or not..

I truly don't understand what you are trying to say here.. But I agree with most of what you say.. in the rest of the post

I reiterate .. I would suggest to not do a drawing without an agreement that will stand up in court.. It is just good practice ..

 

[bob]

NEVER NEVER NEVER...tedious repetition mercifully deleted ..

I've been in this business longer than the most of you have been on the planet and in that time there has been one, as in one, time that this sort of thing has happened to me. That being the case, I give people sketches without deposit all of the time. Getting stiffed is not something I spend a lot of time worrying over, I'm far too busy conducting my life.

How did that one time end up? I filed in small claims court. There I produced a photo of her sign, a screen shoot of a file containing the design that predated that work as well as a copy of the Berne Convention of 1989. I was awarded my fees and all costs. Had it not ended up this way It wouldn't have mattered a bit to me.

 

[Kottwitz-Graphics]

NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER .. do drawings without a signed or accepted agreement, or a deposit..

If they don't agree to that, don't do the work, they don't respect you anyway .. that is the tell that they will shop it..

With the position you are in now... I would consider sending her an email (so it is in writing), a nice reminder that she does not own the drawings ..

Or don't , and chalk this one up to experience ..

I understand, but how do you get a quote from an outside company, in this instance, the channel letter manufacturer without something to show them. You can't just call them up and say " I need to know how much a set is going to cost, but I don't know what they are going to look like, not real sure on how tall they are."

Unless you know exactly what the customer wants, how can you quote it?

When we met, I did tell her that channel letters can go as high as $6000, depending on options (which I knew was high). I think my final install price was around $3200.

 

[Billct2]

What you use to figure the quote and what you show the customer are not necessarily the same thing

 

[DSC]

I've been in this business longer than the most of you have been on the planet and in that time there has been one, as in one, time that this sort of thing has happened to me. That being the case, I give people sketches without deposit all of the time. Getting stiffed is not something I spend a lot of time worrying over, I'm far too busy conducting my life.

How did that one time end up? I filed in small claims court. There I produced a photo of her sign, a screen shoot of a file containing the design that predated that work as well as a copy of the Berne Convention of 1989. I was awarded my fees and all costs. Had it not ended up this way It wouldn't have mattered a bit to me.

I get it..Glad that ONE situation worked out for you ..

I don't spend any time worrying over getting stiffed either, because I never do a drawing without getting an agreement..

 

[DSC]

I understand, but how do you get a quote from an outside company, in this instance, the channel letter manufacturer without something to show them. You can't just call them up and say " I need to know how much a set is going to cost, but I don't know what they are going to look like, not real sure on how tall they are."

Unless you know exactly what the customer wants, how can you quote it?

When we met, I did tell her that channel letters can go as high as $6000, depending on options (which I knew was high). I think my final install price was around $3200.

I completely understand..

In our case we have been doing this for a while and are in good understanding of what things cost per square inch for a channel letter job ..

I would quote the job with the company you outsource to with a simple arial bold or something that might take you 5 minutes to get numbers on.. let them know mounting spec and get a number.. It really is or should be that easy .. Then we quote the customer . After that, we call them and do exactly what you did .

Say something like " This sign is going to cost you around $4k" (or whatever the roundest number up is)

If they don't have sticker shock, I say something like "If that sounds good to you I can put together a hard number for you"

When they get the number, they do say sometimes that they won't agree unless they see a drawing..

I basically in a nice professional manner let them know that "we do not do drawings prior to getting a deposit as policy, because we want to ensure the highest quality standard.. We can not give that to our clients without a commitment on a per job basis .. Our designers are trained college graduates that we value highly, and we simply can not pay them to do complex full drawings on something that is not agreed upon.. We really do want to give you the best service possible, and over the years this is the way we have found best serves the clients .. "

99% of the time they agree..

The other 1% can go pound sand..

I hope this helps..

This is a constant conversation industry wide, and my comments are from my experience only.. I am not preaching or telling anyone what to do here, but hopefully my perspectives can help another business in the trade gain some understanding and can use that in business decisions and conversations ..

Good Luck!

 

[player]

"we do not do drawings prior to getting a deposit as policy, because we want to ensure the highest quality standard.. We can not give that to our clients without a commitment on a per job basis .. Our designers are trained college graduates that we value highly, and we simply can not pay them to do complex full drawings on something that is not agreed upon.. We really do want to give you the best service possible, and over the years this is the way we have found best serves the clients .. "

Exactly.

 

[Rick]

How can you send a reminder, ir the person didn't know to begin with ??


There are several scenarios about what has happened here.

1. Sign person does the work up front with hopes of getting the job
2. Sign person does the work up front with hopes of getting the job and doesn't mention any of the rules of the game, to avoid confrontation
3. Sign person does the work up front with hopes of getting the job and forgets to mention any of the rules of the game
4. Sign person explains the rules, gets a deposit..... or not...... and proceeds accordingly.

Remember, the sign business is not any different than any other business, even though some of you say we're doing custom work.

Do you pay a deposit to your dentist beforehand ??
Do you go to a store and shop for furniture in your living room, but hafta give a deposit to look at it ??
When you buy paint to paint a room in your house, if you don't like the color..... can you take it back ??
If you go to a restaurant, get a meal and don't like it, do you get your money back ?? Oh, you say you didn't pay for it ahead of time ??



If you want to be professional, it should be written into your quotes at the bottom about the rights, payments and how you do business. In addition, if you don't know the person, you should verbally tell them this.
Once the rules are explained, then you are on fair ground to demand payment, but not after the fact. That's just wrong.

If you are so worried about not getting the job, just pass on it.

I'm not saying the OP did this in any fashion, but it's quite commonplace here to see these threads about people who handle things wrong and then wanna hide behind some kinda made up ruling that they can go after lost money, which was never theirs to begin with.

THIS....

Usually this type of thing is layout...

The client does not automatically know the rules unless you spell it out for them.

Another thing is... you did way too much work. I'm guessing they did not have a logo?

I think what you did was "design"

If they don't have a logo, offer them design services and charge for it. Showing
them 12+ fonts is overkill for a layout. That is design, and you should be paid for
that but you had to let the client know upfront.

Most of these jobs have a logo already, you get the code or sign criteria, maybe visit
the site and take a few pics, you are slapping it on an elevation, should already have
a section drawing for most types of signs, and sending it out to your fabricator.

Seems simple enough to a customer but...that can be 2 hours worth of work.
That's all the client needs to know, that you have to spend "x" amount of time to
design it... it's not complex and any monkey that knows scale can make the drawings...
but you should be reimbursed for the time it took to lay it out either by making the
sale, or selling it to another shop.

I live in a very competitive area and I deal with a lot of sign shops, none of them
charge for this service, they know the drawings will get shopped. The ones that
charge for this usually get laughed at. The only solution I know that really works
is have them sign off that if they do take your drawing and shop it, they pay "X"
amount of money for it and you will supply the file to the sign contractor.

 

[DSC]

I live in a very competitive area and I deal with a lot of sign shops, none of them
charge for this service, they know the drawings will get shopped. The ones that
charge for this usually get laughed at. The only solution I know that really works
is have them sign off that if they do take your drawing and shop it, they pay "X"
amount of money for it and you will supply the file to the sign contractor.

NONE of them charge for a a layout? I find that hard to believe, but I do not live in your area..

That is too bad.. It really is..

I do agree with the solution you propose .. I see that a lot in the "marketing firm" world.. when we get designs form those types of businesses.

I remember when we opened in our area, there were about 7 shops within 10 miles of each other.

I tend to be a friendly guy so I go over and introduce myself and let them know if they need any help with anything, please reach out, that we are all in this together ..

EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM asked me, do you do drawings before you get the job?

I was adamant I said "ABSOLUTELY NOT" .. The usual response was, "how do you get the jobs then"

I give them the reasons I stated above, and urged them to do the same.. It will increase our value as a group in the area, and it will bring the value of our services up..

It took a little while, but the first year we were open I used to see several drawings a month with the other companies logos cut off . .

I do not see that nearly as much any more..

At the sign association we discuss these things and we all try to stay on the same page .. from what I understand ..

In the end as an industry, It is better for every one to have and get the most value out of every service we offer ..

The intangibles are the most difficult to get respect for..

If someone laughed at me for telling them that I value my staff and there work, that is definitely someone I want NO PART of in my business life..

It would be ridiculously disrespectful, and I would not stand for that..

 

[Gino]

NONE of them charge for a a layout? I find that hard to believe, but I do not live in your area..

That is too bad.. It really is..

I do agree with the solution you propose .. I see that a lot in the "marketing firm" world.. when we get designs form those types of businesses.

I remember when we opened in our area, there were about 7 shops within 10 miles of each other.

I tend to be a friendly guy so I go over and introduce myself and let them know if they need any help with anything, please reach out, that we are all in this together ..

EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM asked me, do you do drawings before you get the job?

I was adamant I said "ABSOLUTELY NOT" .. The usual response was, "how do you get the jobs then"

I give them the reasons I stated above, and urged them to do the same.. It will increase our value as a group in the area, and it will bring the value of our services up..

It took a little while, but the first year we were open I used to see several drawings a month with the other companies logos cut off . .

I do not see that nearly as much any more..

At the sign association we discuss these things and we all try to stay on the same page .. from what I understand ..

In the end as an industry, It is better for every one to have and get the most value out of every service we offer ..

The intangibles are the most difficult to get respect for..

If someone laughed at me for telling them that I value my staff and there work, that is definitely someone I want NO PART of in my business life..

It would be ridiculously disrespectful, and I would not stand for that..

I don't think charging for a design/layout is the question here. Regardless if that's how people get someone to nibble or lose it to someone else, these people are prepared for the consequences.

My issue Is simply explaining the rules of the transaction beforehand. People need to know how we work, before they make a committment. Perhaps you are saying that somewhere in your story, but I haven't seen it, yet.

Also, your profile says you basically wholesale.... so you're dealing with people who totally understand this coming in. Regular retail people, as Rick has already mentioned, don't know this.

You're lucky you got other people to join in with you and not give things away, but that is all a part of life in any field.

You get a plumber out to solve a problem in your house and he tells you what's wrong and what he'll do to remedy the problem. In your head, you think, I'm gonna get 3 quotes. You let the others tell you their scenario and then you call the other guy back and say, what about such and such. You're doing the same thing to be as sure as you can, that you are getting your money's worth, without overspending. No one wants to be made a fool.
Honestly, you sound rather new to the industry. It is very wishful thinking you can get people from all these levels of sign making to think the same way. You are either very naive or just up to your bung hole in wholesale work, you don't hafta worry about dealing with the public..... one on one.

 

[DSC]

First off, please don't talk about my bunghole, that is a private area that is only up for discussion between myself, my wife, and my proctologist ..

I don't think charging for a design/layout is the question here. Regardless if that's how people get someone to nibble or lose it to someone else, these people are prepared for the consequences.

My issue Is simply explaining the rules of the transaction beforehand. People need to know how we work, before they make a commitment. Perhaps you are saying that somewhere in your story, but I haven't seen it, yet.

I understand your point and absolutely agree .. I Think I was just trying to take the conversation beyond that, as your point it seemed was taken well by everyone..

Also, your profile says you basically wholesale.... so you're dealing with people who totally understand this coming in. Regular retail people, as Rick has already mentioned, don't know this.

You're lucky you got other people to join in with you and not give things away, but that is all a part of life in any field.

You get a plumber out to solve a problem in your house and he tells you what's wrong and what he'll do to remedy the problem. In your head, you think, I'm gonna get 3 quotes. You let the others tell you their scenario and then you call the other guy back and say, what about such and such. You're doing the same thing to be as sure as you can, that you are getting your money's worth, without overspending. No one wants to be made a fool.
Honestly, you sound rather new to the industry. It is very wishful thinking you can get people from all these levels of sign making to think the same way. You are either very naive or just up to your bung hole in wholesale work, you don't hafta worry about dealing with the public..... one on one.

I am basically wholesale, a few townies come in once and a while (when they find us), and I don't turn work away but it is less than 3% of our revenue if that..

I am not new to the industry, I worked for others on the west coast for 9 years, and then opened this shop 6 years ago .. a little more than 15 years because I was freelancing before I got a job while i was in graphic art school..

I know I can not get everyone to think the same way, they don't all do, I am just saying I have not seen those types of quotes lately..

Definitely not naive, and yes we are at capacity 80% of the year, but we are a small 5 person shop..

I do deal with the public and did for years before this shop.. I go on site surveys with the clients very often and help them get the information they need to get us a RFQ ..

After few, they are good to go, and the partnership is "in flight" so to speak..

These types of issues with retail shops are the thing that I am MOST concerned about..

Without the retail shops, I am out of business.. It is in my best interest to have these conversations and gain perspective and learn from everyone on this site and other avenues in order to get good information to use for our plans, and when I talk business with our clients..

It is in my best interest to have the retails best interest in mind ... always ...

I definitely appreciate yours and everyones comments though..

I think thats gonna do it for me on this one..