important legal questions... (with a degree of urgency)

[incognito]

First, let me say this.

THIS IS NOT MY FIRST POST... :Oops:

I am one of us... most of you know me... & I have nothing to hide from any of you, so please do not be offended if I post a thread incognito.



I am in a legal quandary, & I wish to seek everyone's advice anonymously. Fred understands my concerns & has allowed me to make this post.

I am the victim here, but I just thought this thread may involve more personal data than I would want to associate with my identity at this time, because I don't understand enough of the situation I am in, which is why I am posting about it here.

I plan to terminate an employee sometime tomorrow. There is not that much time to benefit from this thread, but in case there are any experienced comments that could help me, here’s my situation.

I found a file on an employees computer, which amounted to 2 different forged documents. They are a State issued vehicle safety inspection sticker, & a State vehicle registration sticker. The file was saved 3 days ago. I don’t yet know if there were any stickers made, or if there may have been several made.

The employee has played a very important role in my business, although he does nothing I could not do myself, however he will not be easily replaced.

I am not asking if I should terminate this individual. I have already decided that I will.

What I am interested in is terminating this person in the “proper” manner, or in one that protects me as much as possible from any claims of wrongful termination.

I expect to confront this person tomorrow, & to ask why these files exist, & what has been done with them up to this point. I will not reveal my intentions at that point, but soon after I expect to explain how unfortunate that I feel it is, that this situation has ended our time working together.

i would ask that a professional attitude be maintained, & that the consequences be faced with the dignity of a gambler losing a bet he chose to make. Unfortunately, I expect it may get ugly. I will ask that the employee gather their personal belongings under my watchful eye, and vacate the premises within 30 or so minutes of our first conversation.

I do not plan to allow any files to be removed from my computer. If any claims are made that personal files exist, I will require a submission in writing of what documents are requested, & possibly arrange to make them available at a future date when a final paycheck is ready for pickup.

I believe it may be appropriate to put together a written letter of termination. I might be somewhat vague on that letter, to cite my reason as “the unauthorized use of company time & computers, for personal design work”. This could be for the employees benefit, rather than spell out what is certainly a felony offense if actual decals were produced, & possibly so even in producing the forged files.

In addition to a letter of termination (with the possible vaguely defined offense) I thought I might also require that he sign a paper containing a printout of his forged file, stating that myself, & my business had no prior knowledge of his file. I don’t know if the employee would sign this, but I believe I have good rights for expecting that to be done.

The last topic i am uncertain of is severance pay. I don’t know what would be customary, but I certainly do not feel a great deal of obligation under the circumstances. I will be inconvenienced greatly by the sudden loss of an important assistant, but I just don’t feel i can prolong the inevitable. A breach of trust has occurred & it feels quite significant to me. I believe i may connect the offer of severance pay to the signing of the letter that declares my innocence. That “connection” might be implied, but not spelled out in writing or otherwise. I don’t know if there is any real benefit to such a document, but I believe it may be worth asking for anyway.

So, if anyone has knowledge of the “crime”, the proper name for it, & whether it is still as serious as i believe it is, even if actual stickers have not been printed, or put on any vehicle, I would like to hear whatever you could tell me.

If anyone has advice related to proper termination procedures, I am also very unfamiliar with that.

 

[Pat Whatley]

I can't help with the legal angle (don't know where you are) but here in Alabama all I've got to do is tell you that you don't work here anymore and send you on your way.

I think the first thing I would do would be to quietly call the state inspection office and ask them what the penalty is for printing fake decals. Take that information and confront your employee.

 

[Biker Scout]

I don't think you need to spell out anything in a termination letter, other than the vague, misuse of company property. Because in doing so may open the doors for your employee to face prosecution and/or jail time. He may or may not want to admit anything to you, as you aren't his lawyer, nor a judge, and doesn't have to. Unless you specifically want to press charges and seem him go down in flames.

Helping him keep his amendment rights in tact should be your first priority. Plus, you don't know the whole story behind the decals anyway.

Just state that you are terminating his employ due to the potential misuse of company property for personal use, and possibility to commit fraud and forgery. You don't even need to be specific... if he's a smart cat, he'll know exactly what files you are talking about.

Also, state that this is not open to discussion or debate, and that you don't want to know the details, as it would incriminate you and your company as well. Tell him that given the circumstances, that you will write him a positive letter of recommendation, and hope that he would learn a valuable lesson from this, and he can pick up his check on Friday along with any other personal belongings.

 

[Rick]

I kinda agree with Biker Scout.

Normally you can't say anything bad of a previous employer anyways no matter what reasons for termination.

Most employment is at-will but you want to cover your butt, you might have them sign a waiver of liability that any action by them taken under your employment was legal. Any activities illegal that they have done would be their liability and hold you faultless but add no details to it. I highly doubt you can keep any form of compensation for signing that document. And you usually have to pay at the time/day of termination but you can probably check your states website.

As far as severance, that is usually saved for an employee who leaves on their own, layed-off, let go for minor infractions or family leave after a certain time of employment... You usually have to pay unused vacation time and hours they worked up to that point and that is all. Especially with the circumstances involved.

They will probably apply for unemployment and that would be their way of severance though I doubt they are able to apply if they are being let go for an illegal activity, you might have to look into that.

 

[legacyborn]

You should also check your local laws. In California, if you terminate an employee you only have a very short time to pay them. Most employers I know pay on the spot, but I think the law says 24 hours.

 

[Biker Scout]

OR... you could just say, "Dude... seriously? Fake tags on my equipment? What are you trying to get us both landed in jail? Please take the next few days off, and I'll manage without you. I might even consider looking for someone else... I'll have to think about it. I have a right mind to turn you in for this, but I won't, so don't say anything and don't give me a reason to pick up that phone."

That would be the way I'd handle it... mainly because I've personally printed some dubious things myself, for personal use, never for profit or anyone else gain. So without hearing his side of the story, I've been there, and know what it's like to have really cool professional tools, and talent to make anything I want right at my fingertips. But I own the place and it's my ass on the line. Plus, I've got a "F*** The Man" mentality that comes out every now and then.

 

[incognito]

Thanks for the responses so far!

I have no desire to delay finalizing our business together.
I have a bookkeeper come in once a week.
She knows the deal with payroll.

I also agree with Biker Scout, that I don't wish to see my friend suffer beyond losing his job. At half my age, we may not be like best buds, but have felt that we were friends for a few years now. I just think things have been starting not to work for me, & this is like the final straw. I will offer him a positive reference when he leaves my area.

I'm not so sure I could offer him a good referral if he seeks employment from one of my direct competitors up the street. They are also my friends & I wonder if I might feel that they deserve to know the truth. I realize these feelings are colored by the risk that employment from a direct competitor could create opportunities for revenge, or poaching of my clients, so I am torn as to how justified that feeling really is.

 

[FatCat]

Sounds to me like you already have/had other issues with this employee above and beyond the bogus files. If this weren't the case, I would try to work it out with this guy - especially since he won't be easily replaced. However, if you've already made up your mind to terminate him, then do so. Do it quickly and without room for argument or discussion. Keep a watchful eye and make sure he doesn't go anywhere near your computers or files. Wish him luck and escort him out the door. If you feel he might be a threat by going to your competitor down the street then a quick phone call might not be a bad idea before this employee seeks a path of vengeance.

Things like this suck, but basic rule of thumb is C.Y.A.

 

[JimJenson]

Unless I am legally required to, I wouldn't put anything in writing.
I would discharge this person for just cause, and if he/she is dumb enough to seek unemployment compensation, I would make the case at that point. I would also be very careful with future job reference verifications to only give dates of employment and title.

 

[Biker Scout]

Well, friendships aside, business is business... and you've got to do what's right for your business. As far as him going up the street... well, you can hint at that you've talked this situation over with "John at Competitor Graphics, and Sally at Anytown Signs" and they all agree that this is best course of action.

That way he gets the hint that he's not particularly welcome to work in that field in your town. The interesting thing is, that business owners talk. Even competitors. I think he might get the jist of that, and what he's done for himself.

"Good luck with your layoffs, alright. I hope your firings go really well."
–Office Space

 

[Jillbeans]

I would suggest an call early this morning to the unemployment office to find out proper procedure. I know someone who was recently "let go" for no reason, who was given one day to turn in their key and get their personal belongings. This person did nothing wrong except work for the employer for nearly 3 decades. Another employee of the same duration was also fired. Their lawyer says they do have legal recourse for the abrupt let-go, and a few other things I won't go into here.

In your case, your employee possibly using your equipment without your knowledge to print illegal decals, might potentially change the normal firing procedure because in my opinion it is a criminal act. I would definitely get a professional opinion before going any further, even if it means having to pay a lawyer.
Love....Jill

 

[knucklehead]

When I was a manager, I never fired anyone, they took care of that part themselves, I just showed em the door. Sounds somewhat like your case. He knew what he was doing was illegal, and make a consieous decision to do it on your equipment, on your time. When he goes to apply for un-employment insurance benefits, YOU are going to have to prove your reason for terminating him, What ya going to put in that blank?

As far as his personal files on your computers, well, that's exactly what that is, HIS files on YOUR computer.

And what Jill just said.

 

[signage]

I would also contact an attorney on this issue! Remember these files are on your computer and he could always call and say he found them on your computer and just wanted to inform someone! To do this correct you may have to turn him into the officials for this to not backfire on you! Good luck for such a hard decision!

 

[CES020]

In previous jobs where I managed people I was always told that you should never be specific or talk about details. Just tell them you've made a decision to terminate their employment and just stick with the fact it's a decision you've made and it's not open for discussion.

If you say anything, it can be used against you in court. So if you said "You're always coming in late" in the heat of the discussion, and they bring out details in court that your best guy/girl comes in late too, then the reason you have given them for their termination is not valid and you can be responsible for hiring them back or dealing with back pay.

We were always told to clam up. Most of the time people know why they are being let go, but we had a case like this, and the guy truly couldn't put it together, so he was basically let go and he had no idea why, and we couldn't tell him why. It's crappy from the standpoint of the person being let go, but it's safe and protects your business.

We are also an at-will state, so we can let you go whenever we want. Not sure how that all works in other places.

 

[astro8]

Although I'm in a different country with a different culture....my feeling is that he will think you are using this as an excuse to get rid of him...especially if things have been a bit slow...be prepared for the backlash from that.

Just my thoughts...

 

[rambo555]

At my company, if you are terminated you are sometimes given an exit package. In order for you to receive the package, you have to sign paperwork that says you will not take legal actions against the company. From my understanding, it's simply a deterrent and only has a small amount of pull in the court of law. If you decide to give the person a small package, then composing a quick letter/document might help you. Our company gives the person one week to sign it. If it is not signed at that point, then the package is no longer offered.

 

[ddarlak]

is it just me or is it obvious who the incognito poster is.......

 

[7oaks]

Guys, the man is breaking the law here. You can terminate him for that. You have to pay
him for time worked. Have his check ready. He needs to be confronted about his activity
and escorted out of the building. I would consult an attorney about documenting the files
he was using.

I've worked for corporate America for 30 years. Illegal activity is grounds for immediate termination of employment. Pay him for hours worked. Screw the severance package--if he had been caught, then your business would have suffered an image blow as well as extensive attorney fees.

Ken

 

[DOGraphics]

is it just me ...

Yes

 

[32bantum]

I say get the police involved. You are liable for what is in your shop and on your computers. Lets just say there is another copy of the file floating around on your system. You terminate him and as the dust settles the po po shows up at your door with a warrant. Now it's your baby. He don't work there no more and he quit cause you were doing illeagle activities. You can't cover this up!!