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important legal questions... (with a degree of urgency)
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bob
It's better to have two hands than one glove.
Find out if your state is an 'at will' state. If it is then just fire the employee. No explanation is required or even wise. If you give no explanation, then you don't have to justify your actions in the guilt-fest that's sure to result if you do. An event that can easily escalate into all manner of legal chicanery.
If your state is not an 'at will' state, move. Then refer to the first paragraph.
If your state is not an 'at will' state, move. Then refer to the first paragraph.
Just Another Sign Guy
New Member
before i noticed that this was posted incognito i thought i knew who was posting this as well.
myself i would definitely talk with an attorney on this one. the reason(s) being that there may be more to this than you know, there could be 'product' out there already and hopefully if there is it is only on his own vehicle and not being distributed. he may also have a stack of these in his posession. if these exist in any form other than a computer file and he or anyone gets busted with them and says i got them from my buddy at xyz sign i would want a paper trail leading to who is responsible for the existence of this 'product'.
i would also probably have my attorney present for the actual firing with appropriate documents for this individual to sign. you may have no choice but to involve the authorities to remove any potential liability on your part from these items.
very short sighted move on this employees part.
i wouldnt give him any extra pay at all..what for..for putting you in this position having to find a new employee, train them, etc this will cost you money and if you are lucky the only money it will cost you will be in the time to find and train a new employee, if you choose to involve an attorney there will be legal costs. if you choose to just fire him and let the cards fall where they will myself i would alwasy be wondering how many aer out there if any and always be concerned that this issue could pop up again.
it is always good practice even if it is not required by your states law to have their final paycheck ready when you let them go. this way they dont have to come back and the termination meeting can truly be the end of this employment relationship.
and your attorney's advice may be not to give him a reason adn just sweep this under the rug. but i would want to make sure i was covered should these have been printed and some dipstick puts two and two together that he bought counterfeit items and his buddy whom he bought them from worked for xyz sign...just me
myself i would definitely talk with an attorney on this one. the reason(s) being that there may be more to this than you know, there could be 'product' out there already and hopefully if there is it is only on his own vehicle and not being distributed. he may also have a stack of these in his posession. if these exist in any form other than a computer file and he or anyone gets busted with them and says i got them from my buddy at xyz sign i would want a paper trail leading to who is responsible for the existence of this 'product'.
i would also probably have my attorney present for the actual firing with appropriate documents for this individual to sign. you may have no choice but to involve the authorities to remove any potential liability on your part from these items.
very short sighted move on this employees part.
i wouldnt give him any extra pay at all..what for..for putting you in this position having to find a new employee, train them, etc this will cost you money and if you are lucky the only money it will cost you will be in the time to find and train a new employee, if you choose to involve an attorney there will be legal costs. if you choose to just fire him and let the cards fall where they will myself i would alwasy be wondering how many aer out there if any and always be concerned that this issue could pop up again.
it is always good practice even if it is not required by your states law to have their final paycheck ready when you let them go. this way they dont have to come back and the termination meeting can truly be the end of this employment relationship.
and your attorney's advice may be not to give him a reason adn just sweep this under the rug. but i would want to make sure i was covered should these have been printed and some dipstick puts two and two together that he bought counterfeit items and his buddy whom he bought them from worked for xyz sign...just me
rfulford
New Member
Just a quick point to add if it has not been mentioned already. Do not fire him one on one. Bring in a third party as a witness. This person should not be a peer obviously. The best choice would be another superior if he has one. If you are a small organization, you might try using your attorney.
Graphics2u
New Member
I don't see how you can do this without getting at the least an attorney involved, if not the proper authorities. This is different than an employee stealing from you. You're the one that is vicimized then and if you choose not to pursue it legally that's your decision. But he is potentially victimizing the State now and they might not be as kind as you are. And if something is found out down the road they could likely come back on you. It's unfortunate but people have to realize there are consequences for their choices and actions. You have to keep your business name in the clear.Poconopete
New Member
You have to cover your own arse here. Call your attorney.
3CGraphics
New Member
Normally where I work you need a very well documented paper trail of attempted corrections of undesirable behavior EXCEPT where egregious violations of policy exist and in this case committing a crime using company assets would qualify. The employee would be walked out and allowed one opportunity off hours to come in supervised to collect personal belongings. We do write up the offense stating the reason for termination (as it applies from our employee handbook) but no specifics, just that ______ policy was violated. We also have a check paid through that day (if known in advance) or ready for pick up the next day if not.
As stated here laws vary by state and even within states so if you are not certain it is best to suspend them with pay until you can 100% verify all you need to.
As stated here laws vary by state and even within states so if you are not certain it is best to suspend them with pay until you can 100% verify all you need to.
signage
New Member
I would also contact an attorney on this issue! Remember these files are on your computer and he could always call and say he found them on your computer and just wanted to inform someone! To do this correct you may have to turn him into the officials for this to not backfire on you! Good luck for such a hard decision!
As high light that is what I said in my first sentence!
As high light that is what I said in my first sentence!
some excellent points made here.
what if that vehicle IS unsafe and is involved in an accident?
they didn't make a fake parking permit - they bypassed a safety inspection.
rather than wishing you good luck thru all of this go the extra mile to protect yourself and company - then you won't need the luck!
what if that vehicle IS unsafe and is involved in an accident?
they didn't make a fake parking permit - they bypassed a safety inspection.
rather than wishing you good luck thru all of this go the extra mile to protect yourself and company - then you won't need the luck!
There is a lot of good comments on here! All good comments & I am grateful to have so many professionals in this industry to turn to.
Today is going to suck, but I get to put it off a few more hours, so I will be able to try to inform myself on some of the excellent points being discussed.
By the way, I think several comments have confirmed how I can be at risk of things turning against me if I am not cautious, so I appreciate the opportunity to remain incognito. I'm not altering my "voice" or my circumstances because I really didn't want to misrepresent myself. Hopefully everyone respects why that seemed prudent.
This sure is a difficult predicament, and that's not even looking ahead to life without the 40 hrs/wk of qualified assistance I will be suddenly forced to live without. The sense of some degree of friendship has always been a component of the professional relationship. My convictions on taking decisive action do not waver very much, but I have had to visualize those files & a worst case scenario such as what others have described. When I visualize my fellow co-worker, or some attempt at an excuse, it certainly threatens to shake my resolve. That is where this thread really helps me, because it is a serious situation. & I will have to face a friend when I lay down my cards, and alter his life.
Today is going to suck, but I get to put it off a few more hours, so I will be able to try to inform myself on some of the excellent points being discussed.
By the way, I think several comments have confirmed how I can be at risk of things turning against me if I am not cautious, so I appreciate the opportunity to remain incognito. I'm not altering my "voice" or my circumstances because I really didn't want to misrepresent myself. Hopefully everyone respects why that seemed prudent.
This sure is a difficult predicament, and that's not even looking ahead to life without the 40 hrs/wk of qualified assistance I will be suddenly forced to live without. The sense of some degree of friendship has always been a component of the professional relationship. My convictions on taking decisive action do not waver very much, but I have had to visualize those files & a worst case scenario such as what others have described. When I visualize my fellow co-worker, or some attempt at an excuse, it certainly threatens to shake my resolve. That is where this thread really helps me, because it is a serious situation. & I will have to face a friend when I lay down my cards, and alter his life.
Poconopete
New Member
That was their choice, by getting your equipment involved, not yours.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
I believe most of the information you have received about contacting an attorney is among your best choices.
Having an employee do these types of things while on company time and company equipment is sometimes a little tricky to prove outright. Have you kept notes on any other behavioral problems with this person ?? If not, I would have him sign papers expressing....under his own power, he resolves you from any responsibility in any of these or any other illegal doings while in your employment.
He could have some recourse.... in that you never told him in writing that these types of things could be done on company time. Although you, I and everyone else knows the rules.... if you haven't properly informed someone of something they can't do... it can be an uphill battle. Hopefully a judge would see through that instantly, but the signed confession, so to speak, would help.
We had an employee whom after quitting... came back in our shop at night [unknowingly to us] about two weeks later.... and took a lot of tools. When we realized the tools were missing we didn't know what had happened. About a month later, he told another employee he had them and would return them, since Kevin found them at his place one day. Later, he then applied for unemployment which we went to court for and everything was found in his favor because he said we fired him wrongfully and I threw my hands up in the air and asked how can this be so ?? While the judicator was telling him what he was going to receive and for how long... I said, if this guy didn't quit..... and I fired his ass, what would make him think he could waltz in our shop and burrow tools without telling me two weeks after all this took place ?? The judge asked him if this was true and he said well, I didn't consider it stealing since I worked there, but the judge asked him what is own your mind that you think you can steal from someone that just fired you ?? So, he didn't fire you ?? Anyway, he was then denied all compensation and was told he was lucky I didn't press charges for what he did, let alone what he said in front of a judge.
Having an employee do these types of things while on company time and company equipment is sometimes a little tricky to prove outright. Have you kept notes on any other behavioral problems with this person ?? If not, I would have him sign papers expressing....under his own power, he resolves you from any responsibility in any of these or any other illegal doings while in your employment.
He could have some recourse.... in that you never told him in writing that these types of things could be done on company time. Although you, I and everyone else knows the rules.... if you haven't properly informed someone of something they can't do... it can be an uphill battle. Hopefully a judge would see through that instantly, but the signed confession, so to speak, would help.
We had an employee whom after quitting... came back in our shop at night [unknowingly to us] about two weeks later.... and took a lot of tools. When we realized the tools were missing we didn't know what had happened. About a month later, he told another employee he had them and would return them, since Kevin found them at his place one day. Later, he then applied for unemployment which we went to court for and everything was found in his favor because he said we fired him wrongfully and I threw my hands up in the air and asked how can this be so ?? While the judicator was telling him what he was going to receive and for how long... I said, if this guy didn't quit..... and I fired his ass, what would make him think he could waltz in our shop and burrow tools without telling me two weeks after all this took place ?? The judge asked him if this was true and he said well, I didn't consider it stealing since I worked there, but the judge asked him what is own your mind that you think you can steal from someone that just fired you ?? So, he didn't fire you ?? Anyway, he was then denied all compensation and was told he was lucky I didn't press charges for what he did, let alone what he said in front of a judge.
TheSellOut
New Member
I hope it works out for you...and I hope you decided to contact your lawyer, at least for a brief discussion!
I would also suggest that you have your lawyer draw up a "No compete contract" to have any future employee sign at the time of employment. This will relieve any concerns of an employee working for a competitor within a determined radius of your shop!
I would also suggest that you have your lawyer draw up a "No compete contract" to have any future employee sign at the time of employment. This will relieve any concerns of an employee working for a competitor within a determined radius of your shop!
d fleming
New Member
Attorney, Bookkeeper and police. Ask questions of them all. I had an employee for several years that when I figured out he needed to go there were many more issues than I thought I had. Everything from doing cash jobs out of my shop to tons, and I mean tons, of porn on my workstation. He even tried to get unemployment. You may find that you have just seen the tip of the iceberg when the dust settles. Get legal advice from the proper sources and terminate the employee in the best possible way to protect your company. If you can do it quick quiet and easy, great, if not, so be it.
R08
New Member
Read most of the posts but not all so if this has already been discussed ... oops 
The one this I would be concerned about getting law involved is the possiblity of federal agents coming in and searching all of your computers, paperwork etc... That in itself would give me the incentive to deal with it inhouse.
I'm in Canada so the laws are different but I had an employee doing funky stuff behind my back like selling product on the side (that was made in my shop). I finally had enough when one on 'his' customers came into my shop asking about where his sign was.
I should have fired him but I went easy on him and layed him off. He came back to try and collect severence. He failed at that and life went on.
The one this I would be concerned about getting law involved is the possiblity of federal agents coming in and searching all of your computers, paperwork etc... That in itself would give me the incentive to deal with it inhouse.
I'm in Canada so the laws are different but I had an employee doing funky stuff behind my back like selling product on the side (that was made in my shop). I finally had enough when one on 'his' customers came into my shop asking about where his sign was.
I should have fired him but I went easy on him and layed him off. He came back to try and collect severence. He failed at that and life went on.
3dsignco
New Member
I would actually have the Police there when I let him go.. Along with the file in their hands.
He was in the process of committing a crime and you are an unwilling/unknowing accomplice. But if you just let him go not knowing if there are any of those out there you can feel a blowback as YOU are now an accomplice after the fact to his crime by not doing the right thing.
You called him a friend, Well a friend won't put another friend in this type of position.
(I grew up in a Cop family. Father and Brother lifetime in Law Enforcement. I went the other direction for many years.)
He was in the process of committing a crime and you are an unwilling/unknowing accomplice. But if you just let him go not knowing if there are any of those out there you can feel a blowback as YOU are now an accomplice after the fact to his crime by not doing the right thing.
You called him a friend, Well a friend won't put another friend in this type of position.
(I grew up in a Cop family. Father and Brother lifetime in Law Enforcement. I went the other direction for many years.)
Border
New Member
He probably just did it to use on his own car and that's all....probably NOT a big plan to sell these things. Still wrong and still on your time and equipment and putting your company at risk.
Maybe in the future, you can set your rip programs to keep some sort of a log of what files are sent to your printer(s)? Make it so a unique password for each employee has to be entered in order to print a file?
No idea how to set that up but it would be handy from an employer's standpoint.
Maybe in the future, you can set your rip programs to keep some sort of a log of what files are sent to your printer(s)? Make it so a unique password for each employee has to be entered in order to print a file?
No idea how to set that up but it would be handy from an employer's standpoint.
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