Ink scratches off easily L360

[BIG EASY DOES IT]

So I am trying to print to on a 3M Engineer Grade White Reflective. Everything is drying completely, the prints look good, I take to warehouse to stick on the aluminum and when I try to scratch with fingernail after the ink is coming off really easy. Anyone have some ideas. I can give all my specs that I am running at if that would help you.

 

[Gino]

My first thought would be..... to stop scratching it with your fingernail, if you know that's gonna happen.

 

[Leebee]

worried

I'm a little worried as they are delivering my new HP330 next week and I was assured the Optimizer was going to fix that Latex trait.
I have also heard that heater settings are key as well. Hoping for some good replies.

 

[BIG EASY DOES IT]

My first thought would be..... to stop scratching it with your fingernail, if you know that's gonna happen.

haha yea that would be beneficial. But these are Traffic control signs. For the field guys. All the aluminum gets put face to face on the trucks. I know they will scratch but I replace these sign every two to three weeks. So laminating is a waste. I just need it to adhere better.

 

[Gino]

Okay, seriously then.........

We've noticed over the years that the longer something sets around the more abuse it will take. For instance :

Printing to Cor-X..... if you wait a day or so, you can cut a full bleed with basically no flaking.
If you can wait a few days, the fingernail test will not hurt most substrates, but sharper objects will.
Waiting a few more days and just about anything up against most any substrate will have no affect on any of them.

Conclusion, if we were given more time to let things sit around and thoroughly cure, many of our troubles would be gone, so there's two approaches to this predicament.... either give your customers a more realistic turnaround or just tell them not to abuse the product for a week.

Failure to be truthful and not be a hog and promise the moon, what will your customers precipitate more ??

​

Ya know, many years ago, signs were never promised in much less than 3 or 4 weeks. Why ?? Because that's how long the paints and things took to be ready for delivery. People have got to learn this stuff isn't overnightable. People who don't know any better have hurt this industry because they don't know any better and promise things overnight. They can't see things are not cured/dried properly, so they think it's ready....... NOT.

 

[BIG EASY DOES IT]

Okay, seriously then.........

We've noticed over the years that the longer something sets around the more abuse it will take. For instance :

Printing to Cor-X..... if you wait a day or so, you can cut a full bleed with basically no flaking.
If you can wait a few days, the fingernail test will not hurt most substrates, but sharper objects will.
Waiting a few more days and just about anything up against most any substrate will have no affect on any of them.

Conclusion, if we were given more time to let things sit around and thoroughly cure, many of our troubles would be gone, so there's two approaches to this predicament.... either give your customers a more realistic turnaround or just tell them not to abuse the product for a week.

Failure to be truthful and not be a hog and promise the moon, what will your customers precipitate more ??​

I can tell the customers that but the second I finish these signs they have to go out on our work trucks for use. There should be a way to get it to adhere better then it is right now. I know not everyones profiling will work in my shop. But I am looking for somebody that is getting the correct results in their shop.

 

[Gino]

Well, then I think you just hafta face reality. Most of the flatbeds in use today in shops around the country/world are basically low end units with only mediocre capabilities. Had you spent the big bucks on a TRUE flatbed and used an ink specifically for your requirement, your problem would be solved. However, most of us want an all-around-unit that can print to most anything and hope for the best while buying a unit under $250,000.00

 

[BIG EASY DOES IT]

Well, then I think you just hafta face reality. Most of the flatbeds in use today in shops around the country/world are basically low end units with only mediocre capabilities. Had you spent the big bucks on a TRUE flatbed and used an ink specifically for your requirement, your problem would be solved. However, most of us want an all-around-unit that can print to most anything and hope for the best while buying a unit under $250,000.00

I don't have a flatbed printer. Did it say that in my post? This is a HP Latex 360. I'm printing roll to roll and then sheet aluminum.

 

[J Hill Designs]

what product line? most 3m engi is made for screenprinting

 

[jtinker]

maybe im missing something big...and I probably am. Why not just laminate it? We laminated reflective at my previous job and didnt see much of a difference when looking at it. Aside from being electricuted everytime you touch the board after coming off of the rollers it worked fine for us. But IDK, im still a pup when it comes to the biz.

 

[BIG EASY DOES IT]

what product line? most 3m engi is made for screenprinting

It's 3M 3290 I understand it's for screenprint. I used to run the same material on the L25500 at my old shop with no problems. But now they take away the dryer and add opitimzer and it just won't stick.

 

[BIG EASY DOES IT]

maybe im missing something big...and I probably am. Why not just laminate it? We laminated reflective at my previous job and didnt see much of a difference when looking at it. Aside from being electricuted everytime you touch the board after coming off of the rollers it worked fine for us. But IDK, im still a pup when it comes to the biz.

Price- these signs last a week or two in the field laminated or not. If the ink adheres properly. These signs are going on Traffic Control Trucks for the guys setting up lane closures. Laminatig everyone seems like waste of material. But maybe not if I can't get it to adhere.

 

[Gino]

I don't have a flatbed printer. Did it say that in my post? This is a HP Latex 360. I'm printing roll to roll and then sheet aluminum.

My bad. You were describing flatbed issues and I didn't consider this to be anything else. Sorry, never experienced any of our inks coming off when printing roll to roll. Guess it's a latex kinda thing. Must be very sensitive components.


Nevermind........

 

[BIG EASY DOES IT]

My bad. You were describing flatbed issues and I didn't consider this to be anything else. Sorry, never experienced any of our inks coming off when printing roll to roll. Guess it's a latex kinda thing. Must be very sensitive components.


Nevermind........

I assume it has to do with the coating only wanting to adhere to solvent based inks. Either screen or printed. But I have used said material before with latex inks (granted they were the first gen. inks) and had no problems. Does nobody else print latex on 3M EG 3290

 

[CES020]

Can't help with the issue, but can you put a sheet of the release liner that's left over between the pieces to keep them from getting scratched when they are heading out to be installed?

A 2 week life span is pretty short, it basically just has to get to the job, it sounds like.

What profile are you using? Maybe it's drying it at the wrong temp.

 

[jtinker]

Get a spray on sealer from a hardware store. I used to use them to protect my highschool artwork but they should work for this too. They work, last a good whole and a couple cans for a couple bucks problem solved. You're welcome :Big Laugh

 

[BIG EASY DOES IT]

Can't help with the issue, but can you put a sheet of the release liner that's left over between the pieces to keep them from getting scratched when they are heading out to be installed?

A 2 week life span is pretty short, it basically just has to get to the job, it sounds like.

What profile are you using? Maybe it's drying it at the wrong temp.

These signs get used daily by traffic control techs. The guys setting up lane closures. They get tossed in the back of the truck and then off to the next closure. After a week or two we sand and resheet them. I just need the print to stay enough that a finger nail doesn't take it off. These are not permanent installs. These are Lane and Road Closed and detour signs. Granted what we do for customers could be permanent depending on them.

I am using a profile for IJ180 this is what Grimco recommended we start with. Supposedly other shops run it on this setting no problem. Not my case.

 

[CES020]

I don't think the IJ180 profile is going to work on that machine for that. Even for the older machines, the profile for the reflective is very different than IJ-180, best I can tell.

On 3M's site, they don't have a profile for it (as you probably already know), and on HP's site, it's not listed either. But what is listed are two things of interest. One, there's a distinct profile for the older machines for reflective and category wise, it's not even close to the other items, which may or may not mean anything, but I suspect it does, especially since there's a decent different between their Envision, Premium Cast, and Intermediate. I'd think reflective wouldn't be a good material to use IJ-180 with, but that's my uneducated opinion.

Second, the settings for the old 25500 are listed as :

Load Type - Film
Print Mode : 12 pass bidr.
Drying temp 55C
Curing Temp 120C
Airflow 40%
Tension 15N/m
Vaccum 40mmH20

Maybe that helps some, but my guess is you need a better profile than IJ180.

 

[Hotspur]

Well you've paid extra for a 360 over a 330 so that it can build it's own custom profiles...so build one!

Takes 40 mins and then you know it is curing properly and not trying to cure too much ink.

Some substrates are simply incompatible - it may be that this is one. Can you try a different substrate?

Lastly the optimizer has no effect whatsoever on scratching. The optimizer is simply there to allow greater print speed.

There is a separate element in the ink that controls durability.

As the durability is an element that is laid down with the pigment it stands to reason that the more ink you have the better the durability - often people think that scratching will be worse in heavy ink areas as if it hasn't dried properly somehow when the opposite is true with Latex)

Thus the areas of print where durability may be a little less than expected will be in lighter, single ink areas - especially single K.

If this is so on a substrate that is giving problems then redesign your files so that you avoid areas of print that only have single ink colors (especially the K)

Overall however I would question if this media is one that is fully compatible as all compatible SAV I have used shows durability similar to hard solvent.

 

[BIG EASY DOES IT]

Well you've paid extra for a 360 over a 330 so that it can build it's own custom profiles...so build one!

Takes 40 mins and then you know it is curing properly and not trying to cure too much ink.

Some substrates are simply incompatible - it may be that this is one. Can you try a different substrate?

Lastly the optimizer has no effect whatsoever on scratching. The optimizer is simply there to allow greater print speed.

There is a separate element in the ink that controls durability.

As the durability is an element that is laid down with the pigment it stands to reason that the more ink you have the better the durability - often people think that scratching will be worse in heavy ink areas as if it hasn't dried properly somehow when the opposite is true with Latex)

Thus the areas of print where durability may be a little less than expected will be in lighter, single ink areas - especially single K.

If this is so on a substrate that is giving problems then redesign your files so that you avoid areas of print that only have single ink colors (especially the K)

Overall however I would question if this media is one that is fully compatible as all compatible SAV I have used shows durability similar to hard solvent.

I'm going to test the theory of more ink more durability. (I'm assuming as long as you get it to dry.) I print 4 color k. Since 90% of what I print is black. It's better to spread the usage across the cartridges.