Installation rate vs man hours

[mkmie]

What about s/f pricing for install? Removal, definitely an hourly rate with a best guess but not a guarantee on how long it will take.
Maybe it a regional thing but we usually are quoted by the s/f by our 1099 installers.

 

[kcollinsdesign]

I always add up my "burdened" labor cost (what you pay the guy plus your share of payroll tax, general liability insurance, workmans comp, and any other benefits payments such as 401k, simple IRA, ancillary insurance, health insurance, etc.). That's what you pay to get the guy in the field. Then I add a multiplier at the end. Typically, it comes to about 2.5x the burdened labor rate. It's hard to imagine charging less than $65.00/hour unless you are paying minimum wage with no benefits. Good luck with that in today's economy!

In central Illinois it is about $95.00 with a pickup truck, $120 with a bucket truck, and $95.00 plus marked-up equipment cost for anything else. The economy here is that my $95.00/hour guy is going to get a lot more done than a minimum wage guy, so it works out better for everybody.

 

[Gino]

You make no sense. You do all those calculations and you think it only costs an extra $25 to run a bucket truck around over a pickup ?? Do you really have a method or are you just making this up ?? I thought you only designed things from home and had others go do their own thing ??
Let's stay focused..............

 

[Jester1167]

What about s/f pricing for install? Removal, definitely an hourly rate with a best guess but not a guarantee on how long it will take.
Maybe it a regional thing but we usually are quoted by the s/f by our 1099 installers.

Square foot pricing is a tool. I bounce known square foot pricing off a labor x rate pricing all the time to make sure I'm not leaving any money on the table.

Say the average sqft pricing for a van wrap install is 250sqft x $3 = $750 and your labor rate is $75 an hour and you can do them in 10 hours, the numbers make sense. But, after a couple of years and moving from vertical panel installs to horizontal panels, you can do one in 6 or 7 hours, Should you lower your pricing based on your hourly rate or reward yourselves for getting better and give your installer a raise because they making you more per hour? I would use the square foot pricing, give my installer a raise so I don't have to compete with them, and also know I have room for some discount pricing if things slow down.

Square foot pricing also tends to works well on simpler installs like walls and commercial vans, but you need multipliers or addons for more complex work, like cars with bumpers, mirrors, and spoilers, or walls with lots of doorways, corners, switches... I price a 500 sqft mural on a painted wall differently than (10) 50 sqft murals. The 10 different murals each have their own setup time (moving equipment, finding the rendering, and positioning the graphic.) I also charge more when the client doesn't have placement renderings and they tell you the client will guide you with the placement. 50% of the time you can count on that adding at least an hour to your job, especially when you end up with their assistant.

This is why having some experience and a good sense of the appropriate labor rate, sqft pricing, knowing what your competitors are charging, and understanding the possible challenges of each specific job are important while quoting. If your not an installer, it's a good idea to consult with your installers as well. The installers should have a better sense of the complexities of each install and they will remember the customers that are always ready with clean vehicles pulled inside as well as the customers that are never ready. One should be rewarded and the other should be billed.

I wouldn't want to be the cheapest in my area even starting out. If you are you'll end up with customers who only care about the price and they will leave in a heartbeat. They can also tend to be most demanding and waste a lot of time. Being the most expensive in the area can be a good thing if you have great designs, customer service, and timely flawless execution. The more you charge the higher the expectations.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

You make no sense. You do all those calculations and you think it only costs an extra $25 to run a bucket truck around over a pickup ?? Do you really have a method or are you just making this up ?? I thought you only designed things from home and had others go do their own thing ??
Let's stay focused..............

That was my thought too.

I gotten to where I charge the same no matter what it is... bucket or not. My time is my time and it's not any cheaper whether or not I'm in the bucket or not. Unless I have a grunt then I charge less for him.

 

[ikarasu]

Just because you can do the job quicker than before definitely doesn't mean you should charge less... another pitfall with charging by the hour.

When you got a Flatbed printer and didnt have to print on vinyl or apply the vinyl, did you charge way less since youre saving on material and time? Hopefully not!


SQFT is a good start. Doing a color change on a Sprinter van is a lot less time consuming per sqft than doing one on a new ford thats a pain in the ass to take all the handles and stuff apart. Not to mention you may get a ton more waste on a sprinter van due to its size than on a vehicle that takes up 99% of the material with no wastage. Work out a SQFT Cost you want to charge for material... Calculate how much you'd need, figure out your hourly rate... do a quick guestimate on how much time it's going to take, combine both and charge it.

You want to charge as close to what the customer is going to pay, and what the market price is. Even If you can do it for $1000 while the guy next door is charging $2000... do it for $1900.

Pricing isn't a simple formula no matter what you're doing, even if its just install. find out what your market is charging and stick close to that.

 

[kcollinsdesign]

You make no sense. You do all those calculations and you think it only costs an extra $25 to run a bucket truck around over a pickup ?? Do you really have a method or are you just making this up ?? I thought you only designed things from home and had others go do their own thing ??
Let's stay focused..............

??? I'm the most expensive (per hour) guy in a bucket truck in town (35' foot Versalift on a 350 Econoline). Even the union shops charge less. The sign forwarding companies are reluctant to work with us because we are too expensive (they are starting to come around). Anything bigger I charge more. We have a pretty solid base of installation and maintenance work, especially digital signage, which keeps us busy at the rate we need to make a profit.

Different areas charge different. Cost of living is low where I live, and real estate is reasonable. I can't charge city prices, but I don't need to in order to make a profit.

I worked from home for a number of years. At first I made a killing, but as more and more sign companies began doing what I was doing (down sizing, our-sourcing), the margins got thinner. Original design is less important to the client (the internet has changed that so that anybody can be a designer now), so installation, service, and maintenance is where the money is at now. I still do some original design, and I still work from home when I feel like it.

 

[Z SIGNS]

Your in business... You charge as much as you possibly can and still get the job

 

[Stacey K]

I calculate per the job if it's something I can do myself and if I want to get it done quicker I hire my helper and pay him by the hour. For jobs that are 2 man jobs I add for the extra labor on top of mine. Some things like removal are per hour. I'm usually slightly higher for vehicle installations than some others in the area by 5-10%. I try to do set prices based on how many hours it will take me, of course based on similar jobs I've done in the past.

 

[gnubler]

Stacey, can you disclose more specific info, like what your rates are? And for the extra labor are you just adding on the helper's wage or marking it up some? I only ask because I think you and I have a similar set up (one person shop, fairly new in business, limited equipment).

 

[gnubler]

It's hard to imagine charging less than $65.00/hour unless you are paying minimum wage with no benefits. Good luck with that in today's economy!

Yeah, the one making minimum wage with no benefits is me, hence this thread.

Thanks for the input, everyone. I'm polishing a turd here and appreciate all the advice.

 

[Gino]

I would suggest doing it behind closed doors, but really, what does it matter what she gets to do her jobs ?? You need to get what YOU need to keep your doors open..... not what she needs.

For most people on this site or any other type of business, if you want to be fair, be fair across the board and charge what you need to get the job done. If you charge the bare minimum, how will you ever raise your prices or grow your business ?? Charge as if YOU were two people. The second person gets their hourly wage and the rest of your overhead and whatnot will.... or should be covered. When you people hire these part-timers..... are you covering their expenses ?? Are you paying them their workmenscomp ?? What happens if this helper fall or breaks something valuable ?? Will your insurance cover someone not on a legit payroll ?? That's why you need to be fair to yourself first, then to the customer.

 

[mkmie]

Square foot pricing is a tool. I bounce known square foot pricing off a labor x rate pricing all the time to make sure I'm not leaving any money on the table.

Say the average sqft pricing for a van wrap install is 250sqft x $3 = $750 and your labor rate is $75 an hour and you can do them in 10 hours, the numbers make sense. But, after a couple of years and moving from vertical panel installs to horizontal panels, you can do one in 6 or 7 hours, Should you lower your pricing based on your hourly rate or reward yourselves for getting better and give your installer a raise because they making you more per hour? I would use the square foot pricing, give my installer a raise so I don't have to compete with them, and also know I have room for some discount pricing if things slow down.

Square foot pricing also tends to works well on simpler installs like walls and commercial vans, but you need multipliers or addons for more complex work, like cars with bumpers, mirrors, and spoilers, or walls with lots of doorways, corners, switches... I price a 500 sqft mural on a painted wall differently than (10) 50 sqft murals. The 10 different murals each have their own setup time (moving equipment, finding the rendering, and positioning the graphic.) I also charge more when the client doesn't have placement renderings and they tell you the client will guide you with the placement. 50% of the time you can count on that adding at least an hour to your job, especially when you end up with their assistant.

This is why having some experience and a good sense of the appropriate labor rate, sqft pricing, knowing what your competitors are charging, and understanding the possible challenges of each specific job are important while quoting. If your not an installer, it's a good idea to consult with your installers as well. The installers should have a better sense of the complexities of each install and they will remember the customers that are always ready with clean vehicles pulled inside as well as the customers that are never ready. One should be rewarded and the other should be billed.

I wouldn't want to be the cheapest in my area even starting out. If you are you'll end up with customers who only care about the price and they will leave in a heartbeat. They can also tend to be most demanding and waste a lot of time. Being the most expensive in the area can be a good thing if you have great designs, customer service, and timely flawless execution. The more you charge the higher the expectations.

 

[mkmie]

Agreed. Installers will use a lower s/f rate for walls and windows and a higher rate for semi-trailers and higher still for "personal" vehicles, vans, more complex installs. This helps me when quoting a job. I don't care if it takes the installer an hour or 8 hours I just need a base to quote the end user. The faster he installs the more he makes. Good for him. He does his job, I do mine and we are both happy.

 

[Stacey K]

Stacey, can you disclose more specific info, like what your rates are? And for the extra labor are you just adding on the helper's wage or marking it up some? I only ask because I think you and I have a similar set up (one person shop, fairly new in business, limited equipment).

Example...I have a trailer to letter tomorrow. It's a fairly straight forward day project for me and I can do it myself. However, I'm busy now so I have a high school helper coming in here and there. Tomorrow, while I'm cutting the vinyl I have him cleaning the sides, bringing my stuff outside. Then he can help me hold and measure the graphic. Once it's on he can pull off the transfer tape and get the second side started by taping up the graphics. I am not charging the customer for his help but his help will allow me to get the job done quicker. I'm doing the money making part, he's doing the stuff a monkey can do and making some spending cash. $11hr cash plus lunch for a 15 year old isn't the worst gig. Other days I'll have him do simple tasks as well. Today my son is here opening boxes, going to the post office, bank, etc. He got paid last week with a vacation LOL

 

[gnubler]

Thank you for sharing, Stacey. I'm in a similar position and call in a friend to help when I get overwhelmed or need an extra pair of hands. I pay him hourly (cash) depending on what kind of work we're doing. And Gino, your last comment helps also. I only asked Stacey because I think we have similar sized shops and offerings - no bucket truck, no fully-equipped shop. I think the business I took over was in a time warp for the past 15 years or so...they just kept copying job tickets and repeat orders year after year without factoring in cost of goods increases or inflation. Some of the jobs that I've now done myself, well they were literally giving the product away.

 

[Gino]

Yeah but by that logic your capabilities are not tied to your rate. If it's you plus your lift vs you plus your giant crane, get more for the crane rental because it's going to need more expensive maintenance.

I think he meant, 95 for man + pickup, 120 for bucket + 95 for man so 215 total for a bucket.
The confusing point is, who spits out a bucket price without a man to run it?

I didn't read it that way and if that's what he meant, good for him.
I have an itemized area in my software and it all says bucket truck with one man...... bucket truck with 2 men...... company truck with one man and so on. Scissors lift with one man or two. Nowhere do I leave it up to a customer to second guess me and possibly read it wrong. I don't charge extra to tow a trailer, but I do charge to unload it when I get back.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

Yeah but by that logic your capabilities are not tied to your rate. If it's you plus your lift vs you plus your giant crane, get more for the crane rental because it's going to need more expensive maintenance.

I think he meant, 95 for man + pickup, 120 for bucket + 95 for man so 215 total for a bucket.
The confusing point is, who spits out a bucket price without a man to run it?

Yeah, no I don't think so. Sounded like a guy shows up in a pickup its 95/hour, guy shows up in a bucket truck its 120 an hour. All hypothetical of course.
I find a dart board works the best. Or just tell people before you start that it's gonna be really pricey and then right before you send them the rack rate invoice, call them and say well, it wasnt near as much as I thought it was gonna be.

 

[Gino]

I've used that thinking and it really works.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Yeah but by that logic your capabilities are not tied to your rate. If it's you plus your lift vs you plus your giant crane, get more for the crane rental because it's going to need more expensive maintenance.

I think he meant, 95 for man + pickup, 120 for bucket + 95 for man so 215 total for a bucket.
The confusing point is, who spits out a bucket price without a man to run it?

I used a sub last week in Wyoming that charged it that way! Bucket per hour plus man per hour.