It's the sign of the times... another non-pay question...

[John L]

With the recent deadbeat threads I thought this may be an appropriate time to toss out one that has been on my mind.

Customer has been spewing excuses for over 3 months now. I just sent a certified letter stating our contract clauses he is in breach of and gave him a few more days to make it happen. He owes a $1200 balance on an $82K job.

I have a legal contract with this guy. I hold trade licenses to do the work that I did. My engineer designed it, and I pulled the permits for the project. I have written permission from the landlord to perform the work as stated in my contract. It's all done.

Our contract states that he is to reimburse me actual permit costs. Thats the balance... $1200. He doesn't like that idea now. Although it's really just an unpaid contract balance, my letter to him specifically stated that he hasn't yet paid for the permits portion.

He doesn't know this, but I usually withold the final inspection on these large jobs until we are paid. As usual, I haven't yet called it in. I did call my inspectors and told them my issue.. and asked if I would be able to cancel the permits because he hasn't paid for them. Both responded yes. Both said they would also be there the next day to write citations for the sign assembly. They think he's an ass too.

I am not freaking out.. I'm cool. I'm not heading over with a torch to drop the pylon. I understand the criminal ramifications of that stuff. But all indicators are pointing to me not getting this money in any reasonable way and I just don't have much more time to commit to this. My attorney says I will invest another $700 with court costs and his time to get this in court. I kinda know how these go in court though, it will be more, and I will get it back if I prevail. But the courts usually split the baby somewhere and I will eat at least a portion of my legal fees and all of my loss time (at least 2 trips to the court). I am busy with other work now and don't want that hassle for a possible $600-$700 gain.

The attorney has his hand out with every question I ask and he is having Thanksgiving down in Boca Raton. So I am asking you Bob (haha, anyone please) (well not Mosh, anyone else haha)... am I proposing to break a law here by cancelling the permits and, inadvertantly, blowing the roof off his little party? The inspectors both tell me no and it would REALLY make my day. But can a civil complaint be successfully brought against me for this?

 

[SignManiac]

Mosh please chime in. I can't wait to hear your words of wisdom on this matter!

 

[Mosh]

Have you you ever been convicted in a state court of law, in a case of mistool indentity? Well don't feel rained on friend, I've been thar. Have you ever been so drunk you have to hold onto the ground, so you don't go to Boca Raton? Don't be ashamed friend, I ve been thar.

Cancel the permits already! So I will quit singing, PLEASE....I've been thar do de do.....

 

[John L]

That's awesome. I love you man.

 

[advsign22]

Can you just tell the guy if he does not pay for the permits, you will cancel them and then he will have other issues. I do not see anything wrong with telling him that you will cancel the permits unless you get paid for them.

 

[cgsigns_jamie]

Is the sign in Florida?
Did you file a Notice of Commencement?
Can you file a Lien?
Do you own a gun?

 

[Mosh]

Can you file a Lien?

We calls it a lean here in Nebraska.

You did get payment for the signs right? Cancel the permits and let him worry about it.

 

[John L]

Can you just tell the guy if he does not pay for the permits, you will cancel them and then he will have other issues. I do not see anything wrong with telling him that you will cancel the permits unless you get paid for them.

I thought about that. But decided against it. It could possibly ruin the fun.

These municipalities and permit departments are kinda funky in some areas. My problem there is that the property owner generates a lot of tax money that keeps all those rule-makers and enforcers in their jobs. So they might listen if he were to call up before me and tell a few lies (he's got it bad, he lies bad).

Even though I paid for it. Since it's all been issued, he might be able to convince them to do the final and then my evil-ness is over.

 

[John L]

Is the sign in Florida?
Did you file a Notice of Commencement?
Can you file a Lien?
Do you own a gun?

Not in FL. so no, no N.O.C. - Florida is awesome though, I wouldn't have this problem in Florida.

Where it is at... I think the system is "judgement first, then lien" at least it used to be that way. It costs a fortune to get that far and the owner isn't selling anytime soon, and they just refinanced, and his credit score is likely slipping because of stuff like this. He's going into hiding soon, I'm sure.

 

[cgsigns_jamie]

Well I suppose you could always fall back on "Do you own a gun?"

--- Just kidding, I don't condone or promote shooting deadbeat customers

 

[CheapVehicleWrap]

If ya'd charged 85k, you'd have 83 and be a grand ahead of the game. We've all lost more on lesser contracts, let it go. But don't forget the torch, or the cancellation.

 

[Mosh]

NO WAY, if I let one row of corn die on my field (it'd be around $1,000 bucks) the next row might die too. It is the idea man. They agreed to this, they need to pay, or else the Mosh might get involved, yeah tell them that!

 

[astro8]

I don't get it?...you're owed $1200 on a $82000 job?...man, forget it and move on.

I know it pisses you off, but these days that's a pretty good outcome.

We factor in 5% dragging out or loss on anything over $30,000.

Not worth the courts, attorney fees, paper work, phone calls, lost time, talking it over with everyone with an ear, your mind off the 'game' or stressing over. Time and money much better spent winning another $82k (-$1200) job.

Have to add...I don't know what it is, but clients/customers whatever we call them hate paying for permits,...somehow it's inbuilt into them.

It's always the permits/traffic control that they won't pay, or drag out...so we factor that into the quote.

 

[CheapVehicleWrap]

yeah, tell them you're connected to the Mosh.

 

[John L]

I don't get it?...you're owed $1200 on a $82000 job?...man, forget it and move on.

I know it pisses you off, but these days that's a pretty good outcome.

I can joke around about it because you are right, it's only 1200 from a large job (large for us anyway). But I usually set things up this way for 2 reasons.. 1) I don't know what the actual permit costs are going to be. Sometimes a few hundred, sometimes many thousands. 2) Just in case something like this should happen.

I don't know if this little part of my business system actually works (without legal ramifications). Everyone has always paid for the permits before it got this close to me actually pulling the trigger. I guess to find out, I have to either try it or pay the lawyer for advice again. Holding the final is just something I do.. it's not part of our contract. I just always call for final after we are all paid up. I know that I can let him burn us out of the 1200 free of any further cost to me.

This guy is really cocky about it. I don't think I want to spend more money or time going after this but the 1200 doesn't piss me off... he does. I'm the advocate of not getting pissed over business, but this one gets me. His story has changed from "give me a few more days" to "the owner was supposed to pay half" to "permits should have been included" now he is just somewhat unapproachable about it. He tells me he doesn't want to rehash things. haha. I swear, more than a few years ago I would have kicked his ass so badly, been locked up, and not even thought about it. Things are very different now, I grew up.

At 82K he got the best price in town on what he bought. Hard to believe but margins were tight, this job was bid against a couple others. I made money but it's not time to retire or anything. If I forget it is over $1200, and assume he owes $75,000. How does that change the plan?

If I give him one last chance.. it is going to be when I am standing at the permit office and they are waiting for my nod. No more warnings or requests. If I do cancel the permits.. it is pretty serious. It takes a lot of handholding to get all of the approvals, you can't just step in and they throw a switch back on. They will hand my drawings back to me. It all starts over, for someone. The 1200 is a very good deal.

I understand if there is no serious answer to this question. Has anyone ever come across a good contract law discussion forum? That would be cool.

 

[astro8]

Ahh...now I get it, your 'permits' are our 'certificates'. He is a cocky arse knowing you could just say 'no'.

I didn't think for a minute (or probably anyone else here that gets these big jobs) that 82k was anything great...if you're like us, the higher the $$ the job the less margins and margin for error.

If I hear that we win...say a $40k job...it's met with both joy and trepidation on my part.

All our quotes state in black and white that the customer/client is responsible for the cost of permits, certificates, traffic control and they all come back with the same story/excuses as you have stated that your a-hole client is spinning you...must be the same the world over.

 

[JimJenson]

someone squirming over 1200 is not likely to spend 10+ to sue you. Likewise, someone who is owed 1200 is not likely to pay 10+ to sue for it either.

But you never know though.
Maybe if you whisper in his ear your intentions, he will cut the check.

 

[signage]

I would send him a letter stating he has a couple of days to pay the final payment or the permit will expire and cost him more! I would then contact the governing body and let them know that you are the holder of said permitting and are the only one authorized to apply for final inspection!

Then if he doesn't pay have the permit pulled and have them fine him and have to go through the whole process again for a much higher price! Make sure you get a signed letter from the governing body that you had all require permits to do the job (CYA)!

 

[Mainframe]

Take a copy of the permits & drawings & meet with him, show him in writing what he signed & agreed to, then explain you are out of time & are ready to pull the permits & final inspection, look him in the eye & ask him if the shoe were on the other foot, what would he do? Tell him you held the final inspection to make sure you got all your money,then ask him if he is on good terms with the code enforcement office because they are the ones that will be issuing the fine for every day he has a sign erected that has no permit. I bet you get your money.....& if not, he was warned!

 

[Just Another Sign Guy]

first of all a job of this size is large for anyone and mentally i agree with the write it off...that is what i would do in my 'mind'...write it off...don't let it get to you, if you don't have enough of a profit margin to absorb this there is other problems..

now with that said "writing it off" i would still try to collect because the guy is a tool and well..it's your money. but i wouldnt let it eat me up.

i would be reluctant to cancel the final inspection reason being is that it may cause headaches for the property owner (not the tenant who owes you the money) so....i would go have a talk with the property owner and let him know that you are tempted to cancel the final inspection but that you didnt want to do so without talking to him because it is his property...if he says 'screw the guy' cancel the permit...but my guess is that of a project of this size the property owner is not going to let this happen. he may be able to force the guy to pay you or he may pay you himself to keep in compliance.

now that the wheels are spinning i dont know that you could place a lien (lean for mosh) because he is a tenant.

i am surprised though because from teh sounds of it this is a strip mall or something of that nature? any project that i have done anywhere near this magnitude (dollar wise) i have always worked with the property owner in regards to permits, meeting their requirement for thier property...and then they have collected from each individual tenant that way you do have the ability to place a lien (not saying that you can not place a lien but i am doubtful).

florida is a funky state though so who knows...

i;ll be interested to see how this one plays out.