Its worse than I could have imagined.......

[visual800]

but instead of anger Im actually shocked.

Pat Whatley started a posts about doing nice stuff for clients and them choosing absolute crap. I posted about this vets clinic and lo and behold was texted the finished product from another Sign guy Sunday......I am absolutely in shock and without words.

The first design was the original

The second design was the crap the vet came up with along with name change and I told him it was horrible and dont do it

Phone Pic on end....I guess he showed me didnt he!

The building is stone, cedar taupes and tans....the guy that sent the pic to me said its worse in real life

 

[skyhigh]

while the OTHER "professional" sign shop came up with the worst of the bunch, I can perhaps see why you struck out.
While yours is very nice looking (very nice indeed), it does have that "Sports team" rah rah zip boom bah look. Another thing.....why wouldn't you use the wording "Animal Hospital"? He evidently doesn't want to be called a VET.

While my revision may suck also (compared to your choice of fonts and layout), I think I would have ALSO offered him a "spin-off" from his layout. He showed you what he wanted.....make improvements to his layout. Evidently he didn't want "cutsie".

 

[visual800]

when we first contacted he didnt specify what he wanted.

after I did giant doggy paw he then came up with the second design you see. I said it was horrible and wordy (yes I said that) and it did NOT match the building. Last words I heard was he liked another sign shops layout better

thus we have the final product

He kept changing his mind and even changed the name of the clinic. Also I take no offense to you pointing out my designs were "sportsy" looking. We all have out opinions and design thoughts

 

[reQ]

I know what you feel. happens with me from time to time to so i am ready to pull my hair & scream "WHY??!!". But recently i am trying to be calm & if i end up making that horrible sign with what customer thinks is good design, i simply do not associate myself with it.

 

[J Hill Designs]

can't win 'em all...

 

[TimToad]

when we first contacted he didnt specify what he wanted.

after I did giant doggy paw he then came up with the second design you see. I said it was horrible and wordy (yes I said that) and it did NOT match the building. Last words I heard was he liked another sign shops layout better

thus we have the final product

He kept changing his mind and even changed the name of the clinic. Also I take no offense to you pointing out my designs were "sportsy" looking. We all have out opinions and design thoughts

While I can see a creative person defending their work, if you used anywhere near as dismissive body language and defiant verbal language with your client as you have here, I'm not surprised in the slightest that he was willing to accept a lesser design from possibly a more diplomatic, flexible or supportive provider. I suspect that he perceived you as being inflexible and only interested in forcing your design concepts onto him instead of working with him to arrive at an effective and aesthetically pleasing design even with his indecision.

As designers we have an obligation to not only provide good design but to listen to, explore and interpret the cues, feedback and instructions our clients give us. I fully acknowledge that you had an indecisive, stubborn client on your hands, but that doesn't mean we just drop all tact, diplomacy and responsibility to mold their ideas into an effective design.

You are well within your right to pick and choose which jobs you take on and which ones you pass on and this looks like one that should have been passed on from the start. I don't want to put garbage looking work out there either, so we try our best to educate, illustrate and assure our potential clients that our experience shows that a poorly designed and ineffective sign is a bad investment. When we hit the brick wall with a client like this, we usually welcome their retreat from the process.

There could be more to it than meets the eye too. Maybe the hack who did the final product was way cheaper and a total "yes" man who just told the client what they wanted to hear and collected the check.

 

[player]

Don't do layouts for free.

 

[shoresigns]

Don't do layouts for free.

This. If you're doing layouts on spec, you're not a professional.

 

[reQ]

This. If you're doing layouts on spec, you're not a professional.

pretty bold statement.

 

[TimToad]

This. If you're doing layouts on spec, you're not a professional.

I think it completely depends on your market, the type of work you primarily do and the level of local competition. If I'm one of a dozen shops in my area and the other 11 offer basic layouts along with their quotes and I don't, I better be ready to lose a big percentage of the jobs we quote on. We live in a very visual world, people expect to see something tangible they intend to buy before committing to it.

In MOST places with an average amount of competition, you simply won't get many jobs above some little coroplast signs or whatever without presenting some basic layout concepts prior to securing the project. The trick is to not spend three hours on a spec layout.

 

[Marlene]

but instead of anger Im actually shocked.

Pat Whatley started a posts about doing nice stuff for clients and them choosing absolute crap. I posted about this vets clinic and lo and behold was texted the finished product from another Sign guy Sunday......I am absolutely in shock and without words.

The first design was the original

The second design was the crap the vet came up with along with name change and I told him it was horrible and dont do it

Phone Pic on end....I guess he showed me didnt he!

The building is stone, cedar taupes and tans....the guy that sent the pic to me said its worse in real life

you are lucky the other sign guy didn't show the customer the thread where you showed his company name so there was no doubt who you were talking about then said his ideas sucked

 

[shoresigns]

I think it completely depends on your market, the type of work you primarily do and the level of local competition. If I'm one of a dozen shops in my area and the other 11 offer basic layouts along with their quotes and I don't, I better be ready to lose a big percentage of the jobs we quote on. We live in a very visual world, people expect to see something tangible they intend to buy before committing to it.

In MOST places with an average amount of competition, you simply won't get many jobs above some little coroplast signs or whatever without presenting some basic layout concepts prior to securing the project. The trick is to not spend three hours on a spec layout.

Totally agree with your perspective that sometimes you may need to do spec work to compete on the level of your competition. That doesn't make you or your competitors professionals though, and you don't have to be a professional to do layouts and make signs. I might just be arguing semantics but to me, "professional" implies that clients trust your skill and expertise, and (for the most part) rely on you to make the technical decisions in your given area of expertise. That clearly wasn't the case here, and rarely is when you're designing on spec.

 

[boxerbay]

cant stand those "see what you can come up with" clients. 9 out of 10 times they are a waste of time. you need a commitment up front at the beginning of the process.

 

[visual800]

This. If you're doing layouts on spec, you're not a professional.

then there are alot of non professionals in this town. you guys may charge for designs where you are but not here. if we asked for design fees we would have no work at all.

the statement you made was not completely true sir. If Im not a professional Ive been faking it for 28 years

 

[Pat Whatley]

If Im not a professional Ive been faking it for 28 years

You're not a real professional until you learn to lie your *** off on an internet sign message board because you think it makes you cool.

 

[David Wright]

It's unbelievable how much spec work architects do.

 

[player]

Realtors show a lot of houses on spec but they get huge money when they hit. Average house in Toronto Canada is something like $500,000. Six percent of $500K is $30K. I get the scraps left over from a yard sign...

 

[decalman]

I have always produced layouts without a commitment.
Thats my market. People do want to see first.
Who wants to buy, a pig in a poke?

Percentage wise, the time I have wasted producing layouts that didn't close, were actually extremely small.
I don't care what the wise men say, there are many variables to consider, that determine success rates.

 

[signbrad]

I think there is some nice design work posted to this thread. Both the original layout and Skyhigh's revison are pretty good.
The original design is more playful, to be sure, but I would not have a problem taking my puppy to a clinic with a playful-looking sign. Apparently, though, this dog doctor takes himself very seriously.
Interestingly, the layout that the veterinarian countered with, the middle one in the three pictures in the original post, is actually better than I would expect from a nondesigner, unsightly as it is with its monotony of line value and lack of dominance in the lettering. In fact, it represents the type of layout that is all too common among sign shops that are inexperienced at design. The final look that the animal hospital ended up with is unquestionably a fail. Despite the large chunks of negative space in the layout, the designer still managed to make the sign look uncomfortably crowded. This client probably found a sign shop that allowed him to micromanage the job. I hope they charged him extra for the privilege.


Still, I think the question of not getting paid for design time is a bigger issue.
While I am not a fan of doing design work for free (most architects won't), the practice has always been around to some extent and now seems to have become universal, thanks to computers. Designing on spec is not going away. Many sign people have said that they cannot even quote a job without doing design work first. And there is no doubt that a drawing can be a potent tool for sales.
Yet, who wants to work for free? Maybe if we all collectively decided to demand design deposits...but what hope is there of that?
Is there an alternative to doing no free drawings at all?

In his article, Collecting that Design Money, in the February issue of Sign & Digital Graphics, Matt Charboneau makes a good suggestion: Even if you start out with a spec layout, close the sale when the revisions begin. In his words, put a check on the revision freight train before it becomes a runaway. I think this is a good idea.

The computer is a wonderful design tool. I love it. I don't ever want to go back to the old way, drawing everything by hand. But the level of professionalism in the sign industry in general has taken a nose dive, in my opinion, in a number of areas: design, pricing and sales. This trend has been facilitated by the computer and the ease with which it has allowed inexperienced newcomers to enter the trade. Slowing the merry-go-round of endless design revisions would be a step in the right direction.


Matt's article begins on page 79:

http://read.uberflip.com/i/631107-february-16



Brad in Kansas City

 

[visual800]

In a perfect world, everyone would charge for design. I mentioned this 50 times on here, our designs "sometimes" sell the product. Architects do spec work in our area to compete for jobs and so do contractors. You have to present to be able to go forth and bid. Its commonplace for us and it is what I have always done.

Win some lose some

The quality of the designs and signage in this area has gone to absolute hell. We try and stand out and be one of the leading companies that do the nice stuff but its hard as hell when you are competing with others that give stuff away and customers only care about price. PRICE OVERRULES QUALITY, that has been one downfall of this city and of course the economy is not helping

I find myself sometimes trying to save these clients from doom, sometimes I can sometimes I cant