JV33 - Color drop out = air in lines? (photos)

[Atari]

The printer had not been in use for quite a while. It's running Triangle JVV inks on the Easy Fill bulk ink system (SS21 compat inks). I am just trying to bring it back to life...

I've tried the following processes:

- Numerous nozzle washes ranging from 1 min - 24 hours (turning off the machine while head is parked on cap)
- Head swabbing (always one direction using proper cleaning solution soaked swab)
- I've performed several ink fill-ups
- I've pulled ink through the dampers and head by way of the waste lines (opening valves through menu)
- Today I swapped ink lines to the manifold to troubleshoot head vs. ink problem (the head channel comes back to life!)

Parts I've replaced:

- Dampers (but the buttons aren't "depressed")
- Filters on the triangle bulk ink system (skywalker 45mm type)
- Wiper
- Capping station
- I've confirmed pump works (drain hoses weren't in the waste jug and made a big mess)


Anyway... here's the photos:

The first 3 below were trying various nozzle washes & ink fill up's....








Then in these next 2, I thought to swap damper #2 (Cyan) with damper #3 (Yellow) just to verify if the reason the ink wasn't coming through the head on channel #2 was due to a head problem or an ink problem....
I'm no pro, but it looks like after the swap it wants to start printing on that channel, indicating some sort of ink/line problem going on here?....




Through the various test draws, it seems that all channels from the head WOULD work if they could get ink to them, no?

I've tried so many things now I'm not sure what do do next. Feels close to a solution though

 

[Atari]

I have a new (OEM) mimaki pump with new capping & drain lines, I suppose I'll try replacing it.

 

[petesign]

I'm thinking dampers. Swap the cyan dampers and see if that channel drops out again. Did you use OEM dampers or the cheap $5 ones from china? Take a pic of your head with the cover removed so we can see how much ink is in each damper. Move the head over to the service area and tape all the valves open on the back of the machine and hold a damper open, and see if any ink flows through the head in that channel. If nothing flows, and you try another damper in that spot and still nothing flows, its time to get some tubing and a syringe and delicately push some cleaning solution through the head. You'll eventually see it start spraying through the nozzles if you're lucky.

I switched to 20/20 inks and they clogged my yellow channels. It took a LOT of work and it got 100% of one channel and about 80% of the other to fire again in yellow. I'm letting it run till it just cant go any more.

Get a LOT of paper towels handy, rubber gloves and clothes you don't like, its gonna get messy.

Good luck!

 

[petesign]

Also make sure your head is level - when you loosen the screw to raise/lower the head it can get off level, and not form a good seal on the capping station.
Capping station would be next guess, followed by head.

**Wait, i re-read your post, How long had the printer been sitting up? Was it prepared to sit, or did someone just turn it off one day and walk away?
Could be anything if it just sat with ink in the lines and head for a long time. Dry ink in the lines causing lack of flow, caked ink in the head, etc...

 

[hansman]

Usually the aftermarket ink makers will have a warranty. Check ALL your paperwork. Contact the dealer who sold the system to you.
Out of courtesy I will not mention the ink company, but I witnessed a perfectly good Roland Soljet540 turn in to a boat anchor by simply switching over to a bulk ink system.
I am NOT a fan of the "bulk ink" systems.

 

[Atari]

Also make sure your head is level - when you loosen the screw to raise/lower the head it can get off level, and not form a good seal on the capping station.
Capping station would be next guess, followed by head.

**Wait, i re-read your post, How long had the printer been sitting up? Was it prepared to sit, or did someone just turn it off one day and walk away?
Could be anything if it just sat with ink in the lines and head for a long time. Dry ink in the lines causing lack of flow, caked ink in the head, etc...

Sitting about 4-6 weeks with power on. But notice the various test draws. If I move the damper around, the head will actually print a nearly complete test draw on the otherwise dead channels. To me this would also eliminate the possibility of the manifold having an issue. In general the print head itself seems to have been pretty forgiving. It seems the issue is somewhere between the ink tank and the damper on the dead lines?

 

[Atari]

Usually the aftermarket ink makers will have a warranty. Check ALL your paperwork. Contact the dealer who sold the system to you.
Out of courtesy I will not mention the ink company, but I witnessed a perfectly good Roland Soljet540 turn in to a boat anchor by simply switching over to a bulk ink system.
I am NOT a fan of the "bulk ink" systems.

Yeah I'm halfway tempted to buy 8 refillable carts and trying ink from a different provider.

The ink and system I have came with the printer. I don't have any of the original paperwork.

 

[Atari]

I'm thinking dampers. Swap the cyan dampers and see if that channel drops out again. Did you use OEM dampers or the cheap $5 ones from china? Take a pic of your head with the cover removed so we can see how much ink is in each damper. Move the head over to the service area and tape all the valves open on the back of the machine and hold a damper open, and see if any ink flows through the head in that channel. If nothing flows, and you try another damper in that spot and still nothing flows, its time to get some tubing and a syringe and delicately push some cleaning solution through the head. You'll eventually see it start spraying through the nozzles if you're lucky.

I switched to 20/20 inks and they clogged my yellow channels. It took a LOT of work and it got 100% of one channel and about 80% of the other to fire again in yellow. I'm letting it run till it just cant go any more.

Get a LOT of paper towels handy, rubber gloves and clothes you don't like, its gonna get messy.

Good luck!

I really want to avoid pushing anything through the head, unless I do this with a PSI regulated pump (and know what PSI is safe for the head). One thing I was thinking is I could get all new dampers, bridge them together with tubing and have them suck from a cleaning solution, then pull through the capping station.

I think my biggest problem is I don't know how to properly change the damper so that the disc is depressed. I get the same result with genuine mimaki dampers and cheap aftermarket dampers.

 

[petesign]

on the channels that arent printing, if you hold the dampers open with the valves open do they drop ink at a steady rate?

 

[hansman]

We actually had the dealer flush the lines, replace the heads and a few other parts.
I think at one point they even tried to re-introduce the original inks but it was too late.
Since you bought it like that good luck.

 

[Atari]

Yeah... in a different thread artbot said something like this:

"...(pushing cleaning fluid backward into the carts. maybe there was a little chip/clot of cartridge rubber or something in the piercing nipple??? i'll never know, but it was gone in a minute after a lot of headaches."

Since (if need be) I intend on getting all new inks & carts, I suppose I'll open the valves & push a little cleaning solution back up through the line (above the damper) and let it "print" back out. I suppose I should do a bit cyan block for this though rather than test draws.

The thing is, artbot showed the forum a picture of his slick setup once... he's got taps on the lines for maintenance. Good stuff. I wonder if I could get away with building something like this from parts at home depot :Big Laugh

 

[Atari]

end of day update...

So here's what it's looking like now...






I used the method artbot mentioned awhile ago in this thread (http://www.signs101.com/forums/show...i-JV33-head-starving-problem-with-bulk-system) --- basically I did this...

- put some cleaning fluid in a syringe
- pulled the damper off of the bad channel
- unhooked the damper from the ink line
- opened the ink valves via menu (important)
- gently pushed a little fluid (perhaps 5ml) into the ink line
- put the damper back on the manifold
- clamp off one of the waste lines on the pump
- pull a few ml through the other waste line (to pull a bit of that cleaning solution in the bad channel through head)
- use menu to close the valves again
- 1 pump tube clean and 1 one minute nozzle clean to clean things up
- do a bunch of test draws

I had that missing black channel printing 100% very faintly (cleaning solution still passing through?) , so I opened valves again and pulled some more ink (cleaning solution back through directly from the damper bottom. That's basically where I ended today. It's sitting on an overnight nozzle clean soak right now.

Still.... not bad for what I figured was going to be a goner DX5 print head

I still don't understand how to clear air in the lines to the point of (a vacuum?) getting those dampers buttons to "suck" in, rather than being relaxed. It's probably something that could be accomplished by doing something bad like pull ink from the drain hose while the valves are closed. But this seems like it would damage the head?

 

[Atari]

Sorry.. pictures taken with camera phone. Terrible quality. I'll update them with a better photo with a real camera later.

 

[Atari]

better photos...

I went back to the shop and did some solid color prints of yellow and black using "check pattern" or maybe it was "all pattern" from the #TEST menu. I was attempting to clear any residual cleaning solution from those lines. Anyway, here's a better photo of my last test draw.....



Not too bad! I think I can get the rest of that black back tomorrow.
I'm really surprised it's all come back so well here. It's been sitting for over a month without use (with JVV inks). Lucky

 

[Atari]

on the channels that arent printing, if you hold the dampers open with the valves open do they drop ink at a steady rate?

I thought they did... but I wasn't really thinking about the bulk ink system height Vs. gravity Vs. flow rate and all that when testing it before. I just depressed the disc, drip drip drip, ok good.

Artbot made a post in a different thread about this subject of minor differences in the ink tanks of these bulk ink systems that got me thinking about that more.

I suppose I could hold the damper open (with the disc depressed) and count the drops over a period of time... maybe like 20 seconds into a syringe without the plunger (or a marked test tube)... for a bad channel vs a good channel to check the flow rate. If the bad channel has lower flow, I could try raising or lowering the ink tank.

Anyway, all this aside, I think I'm done with this specific bulk ink system. The previous owner mentioned the tank positioning gave them a big problem once before. I'm just going to get some of those refillable 440ml carts and see how that goes.