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Question Laminating digitally printed vinyl with Rollover table

briansipsy

New Member
We use a Rollover table for the majority of our vinyl work. However, we have a separate ProLam 60" laminator that we use to laminate our digitally printed vinyl (and plex panels).
Has anyone used the Rollover table for laminating?

I'll be using BriteLine luster laminate.

I have a lot of work coming up that will need laminating and it would be MUCH faster to use the table, but I don't have time for it to not work well and have to re-print.
 

ikarasu

Active Member
We have a rolls roller (Looks like rollover) And we can laminate with it. It takes some practice / getting used to though... grab some scrap material and practice? If you get used to it, it can be quite fast.

I don't see how it's faster than an actual laminator though? Not sure how the prolam works... But our laminator you load a roll of material, load the lam... web it, and go... and it can do a whole roll in less than an hour.

With the rollover table... you'd be doing it piece by piece I'm presuming? I wouldn't try to laminate more than a table length at a time.
 

Split76

New Member
With the rollover table... you'd be doing it piece by piece I'm presuming? I wouldn't try to laminate more than a table length at a time.

Why not? Laminate the whole length of the table and move the material and open the rest. We do it all the time.
 

ikarasu

Active Member
Why not? Laminate the whole length of the table and move the material and open the rest. We do it all the time.

Well.i imagine it'd work. Just seems like so much can go wrong. Easy to wrinkle, or get stretch marks... all the moving probably attracts dust... I just don't see how it's faster than an actual laminator.

I've only done it a few times. Laminate is so thin I find it hard to do without wrinkling. I'm sure it's fine once your.more experienced with it though. I've just never had the need.
 

briansipsy

New Member
The laminate that we use isn't very thin. At least, the luster and matte laminates aren't. I haven't tried it yet, but I'm going to with some upcoming mapco logos I have to laminate. The reason this would be faster is because I'm not printing a whole roll, and it will be less than the length of the table. With the way our laminator is set up, we end up wasting a good bit of laminate every time we change materials and thread it through. My hope was that, like masking vinyl with the table, it will be as simple as laying the printed vinyl out on the table, putting a roll of laminate on the roller bar, and laminating it all in a matter of seconds.
Our laminator makes it hard to line up pieces of vinyl straight, and creates WAY more static than the Rollover table.
 

ikarasu

Active Member
The laminate that we use isn't very thin. At least, the luster and matte laminates aren't. I haven't tried it yet, but I'm going to with some upcoming mapco logos I have to laminate. The reason this would be faster is because I'm not printing a whole roll, and it will be less than the length of the table. With the way our laminator is set up, we end up wasting a good bit of laminate every time we change materials and thread it through. My hope was that, like masking vinyl with the table, it will be as simple as laying the printed vinyl out on the table, putting a roll of laminate on the roller bar, and laminating it all in a matter of seconds.
Our laminator makes it hard to line up pieces of vinyl straight, and creates WAY more static than the Rollover table.

Yes, That'll work. We do it all the time for 2-3 pieces, when it doesn't make sense to load the Laminator. I've done it a few times... it's nerve wrecking, but I havent messed up yet....usually our sign guy does it.

Just keep in mind laminate is more finicky... it'll wrinkle more easily. And vinyl isn't as heavy as aluminum, so be careful the vinyl your laminating doesn't slide around or move. It's also easier to start with some excess laminate... And start your laminate off on the table, or if you have extra white space around the sign, start it off on there, as the beginning usually bubbles. Experiment with some offcuts, its not hard to get down. I hate doing it though, so I pass it off. Nothing hurts more than having to re-load a 54" roll to re-print 1 sign! (Because I'm the one who does it ;p )
 

briansipsy

New Member
I know what you mean! I'm also a bit nervous because from time to time when we mask stuff with the table, the vinyl will start to wrinkle as the roller passes over it (I'm not sure why), and I'm actually having to reverse print it on gloss laminate (that's what we usually print on for clear applications) then laminate it and apply it to the 2nd surface of a panformed lexan face. So, because the material is so thin, I'm afraid of it wrinkling.
 

ikarasu

Active Member
I know what you mean! I'm also a bit nervous because from time to time when we mask stuff with the table, the vinyl will start to wrinkle as the roller passes over it (I'm not sure why), and I'm actually having to reverse print it on gloss laminate (that's what we usually print on for clear applications) then laminate it and apply it to the 2nd surface of a panformed lexan face. So, because the material is so thin, I'm afraid of it wrinkling.

Ah, Yes... Printing on lam and laminating with vinyl, thats one thing we do a lot. There ALWAYs seems to be dust in the way when we do it though.. annoying!

It should be easy. I'm making it sound scarier than it is. Once you get used to it, it'll be fine. One really, really easy way... is if you have 2 people, have one person holding the backing paper, while another rolls the roll onto the vinyl. We do it for 4 x 8s all the time, and it's never failed... it makes it so the laminate/vinyl is snug against the roller, and will prevent any wrinkles (Just be sure to slow down, and make sure to catch the vinyl on the last few inches!). You'll probably save more money in having to redo a piece or two, then by wasting all the laminate if you were to use the roller... so it wont hurt to try!
 

briansipsy

New Member
So, I have (so far) decided not to try laminating with the table, because even when using the laminator, If I don't turn the heat on, it leaves hazy white spots all over the material. With the heat on though, it looks great. So, I'm guessing that I will most likely have the same issues with the table.
Also, the table does sometimes do the same thing with vinyl being applied to 2nd surface. When flipping it over, you can see tiny little places where it didn't stick perfectly.
 

ikarasu

Active Member
does your table roller have any cuts or dings in it? thatd cause the issue of it not fully applying.

Also... It all depends on the laminate. We have a certain brand we use (The cheap stuff) That'll haze if we dont turn our heat on. It's the only type we use that hazes.... I did a test though, I put it on without heat...and put it out in the sun for an hour, and the haze was gone. Not sure why it hazes without heat, as we dont use it much... but post-heating might be an option, if it'd save you a lot of material doing it on the table.
 

RKAUS

New Member
Have look at these video using Rollover https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSEmn_VHu3

Hi,

These videos will show how the Rollover is used for laminating

YouTube

Cheers

Ron



We use a Rollover table for the majority of our vinyl work. However, we have a separate ProLam 60" laminator that we use to laminate our digitally printed vinyl (and plex panels).
Has anyone used the Rollover table for laminating?

I'll be using BriteLine luster laminate.

I have a lot of work coming up that will need laminating and it would be MUCH faster to use the table, but I don't have time for it to not work well and have to re-print.
 

Split76

New Member
Well.i imagine it'd work. Just seems like so much can go wrong. Easy to wrinkle, or get stretch marks... all the moving probably attracts dust... I just don't see how it's faster than an actual laminator.

I've only done it a few times. Laminate is so thin I find it hard to do without wrinkling. I'm sure it's fine once your.more experienced with it though. I've just never had the need.

It's not faster, i can say that for sure :).. We've used rollsroller and cwt to laminate for the last 6 years but i'm ordering roll laminator because i got summa f. I need whole rolls to be laminated at the time. I guess i should have ordered roll laminator few years ago but.. This works just fine, the thinner the laminate is, the better it laminates. Wrap laminates do not wrinkle at all, they always stretch a bit so it is not a problem. Only problem is monomeric prints with HP latex and high temps, laminating that could be a .. .. interesting because of the heat :) and don't ask about monomeric materials, it's not used for long but still needs to be laminated because of rubbing.
 

tulsagraphics

New Member
I recently got a RollsRoller (Premium model). It works great for laminating, and like Split76 said, the thinner laminates work best (e.g., less "silvering"). Specifically, the cast films like 3M's 8518 provide the best results -- and that's because those films are more pliable. On the other hand, thicker (calendered) laminates like Oraguard 210 aren't as flexible/pliable, so they require more pressure to reduce silvering. The RollsRoller brand uses adjustable pneumatic pressure, so that's what makes it possible for me to fine tune the pressure for different film/applications (unlike the "all or nothing" electric motors in Rollover or other "less expensive" machines).

On a side note: I've researched and tested virtually every major applicator table on the market over the past 3 to 4 years. There are many reasons why I chose the most expensive [RollsRoller] brand/model, but the primary reason is that it's the only machine fabricated as a solid welded frame -- meaning the tabletop is perfectly level and true at all times (doesn't fall out of square over time). A solid welded frame provides consistent pressure across the entire table, side-to-side, end-to-end, no matter where the roller is at. So if you're doing very much laminating/mounting with an applicator table and you're experiencing issues with consistency, then this is something you might need to look at because the bolt-together and/or modular applicator tables can fall out of alignment, and need to be resquared and releveled periodically.

About the rollers:
Keep in mind the rollers on applicator tables (like RollsRoller, Rollover, etc.) are made from very dense foam rubber, whereas the rollers on a wide format laminating machine are made from semi-rigid neoprene rubber. That's why traditional laminators will always produce better finished laminating results (especially when they have the heat assist option).

No, I would not do a ton of laminating with an applicator table. If I've got long runs to do (e.g., vehicle wrap), then it's easier/faster to use a traditional laminator. For single or low qty. multi-sheet runs, I'll use the RollsRoller.

Speed-wise, I can laminate about (10) 4' x 8' prints in approximately 16 to 18 minutes without any skewing, tunneling, or bubbles. So it's not going to break any speed records, but it's not as slow as the guy's video above suggests either.

Regarding the dust issue -- Pick up an adhesive-based contact cleaner. I got mine from RollsRoller Contact cleaner - ROLLSROLLER
but I'm sure there are other companies that offer them.

Regarding the static issue -- Pick up one of these StopStatic / elastic ionic cord kits w/ mounting magnets: StopStatic Elastic Kit - StopStatic
(many of the printer and plotter manufacturers already have these built into their machines -- my printer, Summa plotter, and the RollsRoller had these pre-installed (or contained a kit for user-install) It doesn't eliminate 100% of the static, but it makes a big difference.)

Hope that helps!
 

JohnBFryJr

New Member
Anybody every try the cheap ebay cold laminator? We do tons of smaller signs 18x24 2x4 etc. I'm buying an hp 315 soon. I just don't do any longs runs that would warrant using a big laminator. Not to mention I don't have room for it. Any ideas?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk
 

tulsagraphics

New Member
Anybody every try the cheap ebay cold laminator? We do tons of smaller signs 18x24 2x4 etc. I'm buying an hp 315 soon. I just don't do any longs runs that would warrant using a big laminator. Not to mention I don't have room for it. Any ideas?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

I bought a cheap 65" laminator on eBay about 5 years ago. About $2.1k including shipping (I think it's a rebranded US Tech). It works fine for short runs, but I have 2 major complaints about cheap laminators:
  • Independent cranks on each side: Most of these units have 2 cranks instead of 1, so you have to go back and forth multiple times to get even tension. Especially annoying when mounting 4' x 8' prints on rigid substrates (crawling underneath the machine or walking all the way around the panel 3 to 4 times to get the job started gets old). Top cranks aren't great on the wrists either.
  • No ability to control tension. The front roll holder spins freely, and there's no tension puller on the back. Lack of tension is why I think the tracking is so bad. I was able to laminate small jobs without any fuss, but anything above 6 to 8 feet was a crap shoot.
I don't know if the $3k to 4k machines have the single crank mechanism (haven't looked at laminators in a while), but I would have paid the extra $ if I realized how much of a pain dual cranks would be.

These days I just laminate on my Rolls Roller table (got it about 3 months ago), so I don't use my laminator much anymore, but I would probably get an expensive laminator if I did more than a few vehicle wraps per month.
 

tulsagraphics

New Member
I bought a cheap 65" laminator on eBay about 5 years ago. About $2.1k including shipping (I think it's a rebranded US Tech). It works fine for short runs, but I have 2 major complaints about cheap laminators:
  • Independent cranks on each side: Most of these units have 2 cranks instead of 1, so you have to go back and forth multiple times to get even tension. Especially annoying when mounting 4' x 8' prints on rigid substrates (crawling underneath the machine or walking all the way around the panel 3 to 4 times to get the job started gets old). Top cranks aren't great on the wrists either.
  • No ability to control tension. The front roll holder spins freely, and there's no tension puller on the back. Lack of tension is why I think the tracking is so bad. I was able to laminate small jobs without any fuss, but anything above 6 to 8 feet was a crap shoot.
I don't know if the $3k to 4k machines have the single crank mechanism (haven't looked at laminators in a while), but I would have paid the extra $ if I realized how much of a pain dual cranks would be.

These days I just laminate on my Rolls Roller table (got it about 3 months ago), so I don't use my laminator much anymore, but I would probably get an expensive laminator if I did more than a few vehicle wraps per month.

By the way, if you have a long production table where you have the ability to pull the print as it comes out of the laminator, it will help a lot with tracking. I did not have this option previously because I was using self-built wooden production tables (about 6" taller than the laminator rollers, so I couldn't pair the them together), but my new applicator table has electric legs, so I can lower the table to the height of the laminator when needed. That made a huge difference when laminating long prints. So if you have a long table for the output, laminating will be much easier to control, regardless of which laminator you purchase.
 
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