Learned my lesson, Which cast digital vinyl?

[john1]

Hey guys, Over the years i have used oracal 3651, general formulations concept 203 and 3M IJ35-C.

Yeah, they are all calendered vinyls and have done their jobs for the time being while i struggled getting things started but today i went to do a install at a frequent customers and i noticed some 3M IJ35-C prints i installed in May are peeling in the rounded corners BAD. There is 3 18x10" prints on the vehicle windows and all are peeling on at least 2 sides. They were laminated with 8509. That pissed me off pretty bad because even a calendered vinyl should last over 6 months.

So, i have decided to redo my entire structure and buy cast digital vinyl and laminate. PERIOD. No questions. If i price my work using cast vinyl, i have NOTHING to lose and everything to gain knowing i am using the highest quality materials available.

I have narrowed it down to a few select ones and please tell me your honest thoughts on each if you have pros/cons.

I would like something in 30" rolls, i can print contour cut stickers with if needed, apply to a trailer with rivets no problem and apply to indintations if it comes up for vehicle graphics. For crying out loud, I would love a vinyl that i can print and not see a 1/8" shrinkage ring around the applied graphic or graphic on the backing paper after a few weeks.

1. Avery 1005 super cast EZ RS with 1360 lam
2. 3M IJ180C-10 with 8518 lam


Thanks!

 

[grafixemporium]

You really shouldn't have issues with those calendared products on flat glass installs. How did you clean/prep those surfaces? I've had issues with ij35c failing once or twice but I'm certain its because the glass wasn't prepped well enough.

 

[john1]

Cleaned as i always do with rapid tac, the print was in the middle and it had cut vinyl on a arc at the top and a reverse arc below it and it's perfect. That's why i am saying it's a calendered issue on the printed vinyl.

 

[GAC05]

No problems with IJ180/8518 here.
It is a little too aggressive on initial tack but the install temp here is always above 80f.

wayne k
guam usa

 

[njshorts]

Cleaned as i always do with rapid tac, the print was in the middle and it had cut vinyl on a arc at the top and a reverse arc below it and it's perfect. That's why i am saying it's a calendered issue on the printed vinyl.

rapid remover or rapid tac? wet or dry install?

for windows, we use a razorblade with iso alcohol, followed up by cleaning with more iso and a lint-free cloth... never had trouble with calendared vinyl failing on a flat or slight curve surface (if it's bad enough that you need heat or conformability, yes- use cast)- using IJ35, 3165 (210 lam) and 3551 (210 lam)... getting ready to go install a couple shop windows with 3165/210 in about 20 mins.

If you're dead-set on going cast instead of finding the real problem... The avery scezrs will slide while you install it, the 3m won't. the avery requires more pressure, and is a bit more forgiving (initial tack). we use both... only thing I really dont like is that we've gotten a few bad rolls of 8518 lately and had to send em back- during install, it felt like the vinyl had a coating of very soft, too-easily-stretched rubber.

 

[WYLDGFI]

hey John...we use a LOT of IJ 35 here...and not many issues with it. Typically if there is, it was paint on a wall that the adhesive just didnt like. Nothing where mounting to glass or metal has been an issue. If you want something with a little lower initial tack...try the Mactac 929 if its available in narrow widths. We have had excellent response from clients installing and checking back about it the past months we've been using. Its a Cast vinyl. We dont sell it as a substitute to IJ 180C But it does suit its purpose as an intermediate level cast for us. Spot graphics and price conscious clients who really want a cast but not spend the $$ on the controltak. Give it a shot...

 

[MikePro]

hands down, 3M 180C-10.
I also use Oracal 3551 RA to save a buck on flat panels.

I laminate both with cast 3M laminates.

 

[JoshLoring]

hands down, 3M 180C-10.
I also use Oracal 3551 RA to save a buck on flat panels.

I laminate both with cast 3M laminates.

Why would you laminate Oracal with 3m??! Kind of.. Um.. Voids the warranty!

 

[HulkSmash]

Why would you laminate Oracal with 3m??! Kind of.. Um.. Voids the warranty!

yup.

I use ij40 on all windows, walls, flat signage blah blah blah.
ij35 on cheap real estate signs
ij180 on wraps.

 

[MikePro]

Why would you laminate Oracal with 3m??! Kind of.. Um.. Voids the warranty!

manufacturer's warranty is a joke, tbh.
when its all said and done, they place the blame on the install. sorry to say.

overlaminate does what its supposed to, its clear and it sticks to your prints. as long as you're not laminating cast materials with calendared overlaminates, you're golden.

noted: i don't mix as usual practice, but its nice to know that I can stock more 3M laminate than I do Oracal, knowing that I can use it instead of the 290 when needed in a pinch.
3M all the way, still, for me but I do enjoy using Oracal products as well here and there.

 

[Border]

yup.

I use ij40 on all windows, walls, flat signage blah blah blah.
ij35 on cheap real estate signs
ij180 on wraps.

+1

 

[grafixemporium]

We've been using 210 gloss and matte on ij35c for a long time on windows, signs, flat installs, etc. No problems. Unfortunately, the 3M lam for the ij35 -- whatever it is 8508? -- sucks. It's pee (**** is a bad word?) yellow and doesn't feel as nice as 210.

On a side note, has anyone tried 170c? What is the purpose? Looks like it is 180c cast vinyl with scotchcal adhesive. The pricepoint is only a few bucks below 180c. I don't get it.

 

[WYLDGFI]

170 C is ok....Has a good use for spot stuff. High initial tack.....no slidablilty. We had an issue where client applied dry...and needed to lift the print, it left adhesive on the vehicle!!! OMG...both of us looked in amazement. Its a good cast...good adhesive...but not worth the $$. Go with 180 or if you need a less expensive material to be competitive, go to Mactac IMO.

 

[HulkSmash]

We've been using 210 gloss and matte on ij35c for a long time on windows, signs, flat installs, etc. No problems. Unfortunately, the 3M lam for the ij35 -- whatever it is 8508? -- sucks. It's pee (**** is a bad word?) yellow and doesn't feel as nice as 210.

On a side note, has anyone tried 170c? What is the purpose? Looks like it is 180c cast vinyl with scotchcal adhesive. The pricepoint is only a few bucks below 180c. I don't get it.

the 3m intermediate lam sucks hard. It's actually just a clear printable vinyl that they said can be used for lam.

3m emailed me 4 days ago when i asked if it was an actual lam.. they said..

it has some sorts of uv protection....Not touching that stuff.

 

[john1]

Well, i have a guy who called me earlier and he wants me to wrap his wheelie bar triangle side covers on his 8 second drag bike. He's a good customer of mine for about 5 years and i figure, with the Avery supercast ez rs it's like $575 for a vinyl/lam combo and i will get a few hundred outta this job with design, print and install so it will pay off quick and i will be more safe as the cast vinyl is more versatile than the cheaper stuff.

I'm pretty excited!

 

[Custom_Grafx]

I use 3M matte clear for printing clear... I remember looking at my supplier list thinking that Colorado... like... wait a second, isn't that the lam for your IJ40? ... "um... yes, but you can print on it too". I don't know any other company that recommends printing on their lam...

 

[Mosh]

I have some stuff with orcal 210 laminate facing south that is 6 years old and looks good. On stuff I know is going to be up a while I use orajet 3551 with 290 lam. It is on my shop trucks for 7 1/2 years and looks good.

 

[john1]

Anyone know if the Avery with 1360 lam weeds alright while doing contour cut stickers and things like that? I know the oracal 3651 i used way back when sucked due to the grey adhesive...it like glued together the cuts making weeding TERRIBLE.

Also, will there be ANY shrinkage around the graphic if it sits on the backing paper for a few weeks or on a vehicle with this cast?

Thanks!

 

[jasonx]

The Avery 1005 with EZ RZ will weed like crap. Use the 1005 LTR for print and cut and it will weed great with the 1360 lam.

 

[john1]

My supplier has this under the description:

ADHESIVE: Gray Opaque Long Term Removable
LINER: 90# Easy Apply RS


That's the LTR right? Why does it weed print/cut better?