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Legal to sell logos which were not paid for?

93Works

New Member
Hello, I have a couple of logos which weren't paid for but ended up being used by the customers. I've asked multiple times for payment, some bluntly told me they won't be paying and others said they would, but never did.

My question is whether its legal or not to sell the logos to other companies/individuals interested but of course with the company name replaced. The interested buyers are completely aware of the situation with the logos and are fine with it, they're just waiting for me to figure out whether it's legal or not. I will also be letting the customers who didn't pay know that the logos are going to be sold to companies who are actually willing to pay for them.
 

S'N'S

New Member
If they weren't paid for and you designed them, then they are yours to do whatever you like with them. The non-paying customer has no legal right to them.
 

93Works

New Member
If they weren't paid for and you designed them, then they are yours to do whatever you like with them. The non-paying customer has no legal right to them.
Thank you for the quick reply! Should I worry about any legal repercussions after selling them? I ask because one company has started mass producing decals, stickers, and car parts. Another is a mattress company that has possibly started placing the logo on their big rig trailers and store fronts.
 

TSC1985

New Member
Are they using the logos in their entirety? I would probably go after them for a good chunk of change. That is your IP and worth value no matter what.
 

rossmosh

New Member
Lucky for you, there is little gray area on this. Any design you produce is yours until you relinquish the rights. If you want to be a jerk, wait until they fully brand with your logos and then send them a cease and desist notification. They'll have to spend thousands to re-brand or pay you for the logo. You'll 100% win if you sue them so they need to do one or the other. At this point they're going to want to pay you the original agreed upon fee. You'll have to check with a lawyer, but you may be able to rake them over the coals for more money. A lot more money.
 

93Works

New Member
Are they using the logos in their entirety? I would probably go after them for a good chunk of change. That is your IP and worth value no matter what.
Yes they are exactly the same. I was actually tempted to file a dmca takedown request because one company has the logo on their website, but it's quite scary to do that to a company that makes millions. I don't know what repercussions I could face.

Lucky for you, there is little gray area on this. Any design you produce is yours until you relinquish the rights. If you want to be a jerk, wait until they fully brand with your logos and then send them a cease and desist notification. They'll have to spend thousands to re-brand or pay you for the logo. You'll 100% win if you sue them so they need to do one or the other. At this point they're going to want to pay you the original agreed upon fee. You'll have to check with a lawyer, but you may be able to rake them over the coals for more money. A lot more money.
I've been quite nice to them, but it's obviously getting me nowhere. Now, I don't want to be abusive of the situation but I do think it would be fair to charge them more for making me waste my time, I could have been working on other orders that actually got paid off. One company already began branding items like vehicle air intakes, steering wheels, steering wheel hubs, decals, and stickers. I think the worst part is that the sample pictures that had "do not copy" do not reproduce" "unpaid logo" along with my logo on them, were reproduced by another designer.
 

SignosaurusRex

Active Member
"Professionals" get paid an up-front deposit. Once the final design has been approved by the customer, they pay the balance before receiving artwork files etc. It should all be spelled out clearly in your "Terms and Agreements" before you do anything. At this point in your little debacle with bigger pockets than you, you may be best to move on and chalk it up to your own dropping of the ball. If you can't swallow that one ...break out the pocket-book and spend some time with an "Intellectual Property" attorney in order to get proper and well versed counseling to determine whether or not you have a leg worth standing on, especially in the event you find yourself in a battle.
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
Listen to S'Rex.

In today's business world with the kinda ethics everyone is sporting around, you are F*cked. You went about it all wrong and if you pursue it, I'll bet ya anything, you never told them anything upfront of your chase down money schemes. If this happened once, I'd say you might have a chance, but you doing the same thing wrong several times..........?? You are doing something terribly wrong. Chalk it up to experience and start explaining your way of doing business beforehand..... not afterwards. Besides, what kinda company will take a USED logo with just a color change or name change ??
 

neato

New Member
GET PAID UP FRONT!

Some collect a deposit up front, I personally ask for the entire total before starting work.

Life's too short to work for free.

"A mistake repeated more than once is a decision."
 

Marlene

New Member
how is it that you have logos out there being used that weren't paid for? how did they get them? did you design a logo, do a job and now they want to own the logo or did you show them an idea and they had it made some where else?
 

Billct2

Active Member
Depends on your paperwork trail, if you have ironclad proof take it to an IP attorney to get the real story.
 

Johnny Best

Active Member
Chalk it up to experience and learn from guys like neato who get the money up front and design some new logos for new customers with some new designs.
 

Pete Moss

New Member
Where were you in the process when they had work produced with your logo? I wonder if it was proofed out as a bitmap and the customer had it re-created? I personally would threaten then with a cease and desist notification if payment is not received.
 

Pippin Decals

New Member
I would for sure go after them if you have the proof you designed them completely..With me all my customers sign a paper that states if the design is not paid for in full, i have the right to remove the design from any surface it ends up on and the person who ordered the design will be responsible for any issues that may arise ..,They basically are taking the responsibility that if my design ends up on anything ,i can remove it and they become liable for any problems that may occur because of it...I havent had one person flake on me.... Most of you may laugh but it does work for me...
 

signbrad

New Member
The trend in the sign world these days is to do design work for free. A typical sign shop now will spend time doing sign drawings on speculation with no guarantee of getting the job. This is a relatively new development and is not a good practice in my opinion. But since so many do it, others are afraid not to. Many customers have come to expect it. And now the sign industry has a chronic problem not being compensated for design time.

Getting deposits
Would any of us take an order for lighted signs without some money up front? We may have the funds to buy the materials in advance but, knowing there is a risk, most of us require the client to make a commitment in the form of a deposit. That way we don't bear the entire risk. And the deposit discourages the customer from continuing to shop for the signs after giving us a go-ahead.
How many of us would letter a truck without a deposit? If it's for a regular customer we may do it. Or, even for a new customer we may do it but we ask for payment when they come to pick it up. If you have the keys to the truck in your pocket you have some leverage, even if you didn't get a deposit.

Should we design logos without a deposit?

If we are doing a job that involves design work only, then once the design is completed the job is finished. If we have done the job without a deposit, we have done all the work, in advance, without compensation. Now we are at the mercy of the client. And once the work is in the client's possession, there can be problems collecting.

How much better to get money up front before design work begins, especially if creating the design is all the job consists of, which is sometimes the case when it comes to logo design. I don't know any design agencies in my area that would even begin a logo design without an agreed upon design brief, a contract, and a deposit. But we sign people are willing to do this. It is as if we don't value our time or consider ourselves professionals. A lady at a large design firm here in Kansas City was very blunt with me one time on the phone. She said, "You sign people are idiots. If you want to work for free, go ahead. Knock yourself out." It stung to hear her say that, and with such tactlessness. But to some extent, we have created our own problem.

For an agency, logo design may be a significant part of the work they do. Design is their product, whether it's used on signs or in print or on the web or anything else. By contrast, we sign people view signs as our product, and at times treat the design work as peripheral or even trivial. And this sometimes gets us in trouble.

I know there is intense pressure these days in the sign business. There seems to be less money to be made than ever before, and there is always somebody who will do the work cheaper.
I have a lot of sympathy for someone trying to break into the business and make a go of it.

.........................


Are logos protected by copyright?
It's true that copyright protection is automatic, but often the design of a logo does not qualify for copyright protection. Many logos consist of merely stylized lettering and/or simple geometric shapes, which do not qualify. A logo must meet the government's requirements of "sufficient authorship" for it to receive copyright protection. If a logo does not qualify, an application for registration will be rejected, and you can't sue for copyright infringement without registering the copyright first. Some examples of well-known logo designs that were rejected for copyright registration: Subway (2013), Best Western (2006), Geek Squad (2012).

This doesn't mean you can't take someone to court for nonpayment, though. If a plumber fixes your drain he can take you to court to get paid. I have used small claims court to get paid for sign jobs. I have done this with and without the help of a lawyer. It is a pain in the neck to do and sometimes is not worth it. But if someone hires you to do work, even if the contract is verbal, you have the right to be paid, whether it's for artwork or plumbing. Of course, it is not an intellectual property issue.

..........................


Trademark vs Copyright
Trademark protection is different from copyright protection. Logos that identify the source of products or services usually receive protection from trademark law rather than copyright law. It is possible for a logo to have copyright protection in addition to trademark protection, but trademark protection may provide all that's needed for a business to protect a logo.
What Does Copyright Protect? (FAQ) | U.S. Copyright Office


Here are some differences between the two forms of protection.

Copyright protection in the US begins automatically when a "work of authorship" is created in "fixed form." Copyright is owned by the original "author" for his or her lifetime plus 70 years. If a corporation owns the copyright, it's life is a flat 120 years. Copyright protection does not need to be maintained to remain in force. Many forms of authorship can be protected by copyright.

Trademark protection derives from using a mark in commerce.
For example, if I decide to build boats I may call them Bradcraft boats. The name Bradcraft identifies the boats I sell in the marketplace. It is a trademark. Trademark law prevents other boat builders from using that name for their boats. Further, I may decide to register the trademark with the US Patent & Trademark Office, since I may have in mind growing my market beyond my local area. I may also decide that I need a nice logo for Bradcraft boats, so I hire a designer to produce one. After the logo is designed I may want to register the logo design as a trademark, too. This registration for the Bradcraft logo design would be a separate registration from the one for the just the name Bradcraft. Many companies register both the name of a product as a trademark (this called a simple character mark) and the design of the mark as a trademark. The two registrations together give a greater measure of protection.
Or I may decide not to register the design of the logo, because my registration of the name Bradcraft protects the name in any form, any color, any typestyle, etc., anyway. If I register the design of the logo, then I'll need to do it again if I change the logo design, and registration with the USPAT is neither quick nor cheap. I can always register the design later once I'm sure the design is what I want.
As long as I continue to use the Bradcraft mark in commerce, trademark protection continues, though there are other periodic filing requirements. The rule is that I will not lose it if I use it. Nonuse of a trademark for three years can be evidence of abandonment.

Now, what if I didn't pay the artist who designed my Bradcraft mark? Can the artist sue me for copyright infringement? Well, if the logo doesn't qualify for copyright protection in the first place, how could I be sued for copyright infringement?
What about trademark infringement? Could the unpaid artist sue me for that? How could that make sense if the artist doesn't really own trademark rights to the design? Remember, trademark ownership derives from using the mark in commerce for goods or services.
Should the artist just sue me for nonpayment of the design work?
Or, if the artist sells the design to another company can I sue the other company for trademark infringement since I am already using the mark as a trademark for my boats even though I didn't pay the artist anything?

I think these are good questions to ask a lawyer.
 

Bobby H

Arial Sucks.
Our company will give a long time repeat customer a good amount of leeway in drawing up logos, making numerous design changes, etc. It's part of maintaining a good relationship with the customer.

But for new people (who are often shopping around for the cheapest price), we don't cut them many breaks. We won't charge for putting together a basic design from already existing artwork. But if we have to design a new logo or re-create somebody's crappy low res JPEG image as clean, vector-based artwork we're absolutely charging money for that. The customer will not get any files he can use at a print shop or whatever until after we are paid.

We have had to threaten legal action for copyright infringement in the past for plagiarized sign designs/artwork a few times. So far we've been lucky the client paid us for the artwork without matters going to court.

In the end, you have to measure up each client on a case by case basis and adjust your strategy to protect yourself. I have no problem giving long time clients unprotected PDFs with vector based artwork in them. In other cases I'll not only password protect the edit functions in a client sketch PDF, but I'll rasterize the artwork, removing any editable vector paths and maybe even dirty up the rasterized artwork with watermarks or other effects to ruin it for things like web page use.
 

FireSprint.com

Trade Only Screen & Digital Sign Printing
Be careful not to send good money after bad. Are you losing out on other paying business fretting over this one?

How much time have you spent reading this thread instead of promoting yourself and designing for your clients?
 
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